...Belles 350a run in mono. $8K new $5K or less used. Plenty of power, clean, big soundstage. Now I'm ready, tell me why not.
Mrmatt (Threads | Answers) Terrific combo. I can think of no reason not to recommend them. I have owned Belles 150A Reference monos (had some problems with intermittent transformer hum in my home), and a Belles 350A Reference stereo amp (no hum issues whatsoever). I would suggest buying used as Belles has poor resale from my experience. But, they are excellent amplifiers. |
O.K. educate me. Why has no one mentioned a pair of Belles 350a run in mono. $8K new $5K or less used. Plenty of power, clean, big soundstage. Now I'm ready, tell me why not. |
See my review of the Bel Canto Ref 1000 Mk.2 monoblock amplifier just posted on issue No. 43 of Positive Feedback Online. Yes, IMO, this is an example of an excellent SS amplifier at a Real World price.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/bel_canto_ref1000.htm
Guido |
ask viktor khomenko about the difference between tube and solid state. it is a fool's errand to think you can replicate the sound of tubes with a solid state product.
there is no free lunch in audio. if you want solid state you get the solid state sound. richness and solid state is a contradiction. |
Hi Louisl.
Unless you have upgradeitis, you might try the Autoformer described above before spending lots of $$$ on a new amp(s).
Here's the link:
http://www.zeroimpedance.com/products.html
Mike |
Louisl, Tvad is most likely dead-on to the source of your "power" problem. I have a very easy(and relatively cheap) test/solution for you... Get ahold of some Zeros (Speaker Impedance Multiplying Autoformer) - by Paul Speltz. They can raise the speaker impedance seen by the amp bu 2x/3x/4x. So, if your speakers dip to 3 ohms and your amp is having a hard time, on the 2x setting the amp will see a much easier 6 ohm load and sail along without breaking a sweat. Read the professional reviews and customer testimonials on the website. Best of all, he offers a 60-Day money back guarantee. So, for $450(naked) or $950(boxed) you might just find out that your AR VT-100 actually has enough power. If not, no money lost on the return. At the very least, they work with any amp and will greatly broaden the list of what will work with your speakers. Meaning you won't have to spend $8k-$10k to get the results that you are seeking. |
Louisl,
I second Halcro's suggestion of getting a pair of Vandersteen 2WQ subs with High pass filter (pref. the Model 5 filter). Vandersteen's method of hook-up is unique (except for maybe Rel) and as Halcro described it takes the pressure of reproducing the very low bass from your main amp - which has a few side benefits such as increased dynamics and a more expansive and defined soundstage. The improved quality and quantity of bass is almost secondary to these benefits.I've heard speakers with far better reputations then the VR4's benefit from this arrangement. |
I agree with TVAD, the Pass XA60.5 should easily be able to drive that speaker. It also sounds like almost any tube amp would have difficulty with that impedance dip in the bass, there are some that could handle it, but it is not an ideal load for most tube amps. |
I'm surprised I don't see my favorite amp...Ayre on the list. |
I have had an Edge NL12.1 for many years and really like it. |
Keep the VT100 and get rid of the conditioner and the Bybee stuff. Try some PC's from the cable company and other cables if need be...you should have enough power! By the way, always use the 8ohm taps as they have better drive. |
Ya, you're right. Sorry, I just glanced the headlines. Both the current 7B's and 14B's are upgraded similarly to the 28B's and are now balanced from input to output. Might still be more workhorse than racehorse but some speakers are more job than sport. |
Louisl, basically what will serve you well is an amplifier that doubles its power output as impedance is halved, i.e.100wpc into 8 ohms and 200wpc into 4 ohms, etc.
The reason for this is that some speakers, such as your VR4 Gen III HSE have low impedances in the bass frequencies relative to the rest of the frequency spectrum. If an amp does not double power output into lower impedances (bass frequencies), then the result is less volume in the bass relative to the mids and highs. We often perceive this imbalance as brightness because the speakers are not producing the bass frequencies that would balance the highs.
For more in depth info, I suggest Robert Harley's "The Complete Guide to High End Audio".
Having said this, the Moscode 401HR, which I know matches well with the VR4 Gen III HSE, does not double its power as impedance is halved...yet it works really well with the speaker.
BTW, you can also run into impedance mismatches between preamp and amps. A preamp with high output impedance matched with an amp with low input impedance can result in rolled off bass (and rolled off highs) as well. |
NGjockey,
By the way...the Bryston 28B's are $8k each. |
TVAD,
How do you impedance match an amplifier to a speaker? (By the way, it's Louisl...the last character is an alpha 'L', not a numeric '1') :-) |
Louis1, what you describe sounds like classic impedance mismatch to me.
There are about a dozen excellent options mentioned. |
NGjockey,
I also heard the Bryston 28's at 2008's CES, driving some Theils. They were outstanding, and I'd pick up a pair of 'em in a heartbeat at the right price. Retail, they are just out of reach. I've never seen a pair used. |
TVAD,
You're right, something doesn't add up here. All I can say is that when I get up to levels around 95db, things get flat, and worse than that, the high frequencies seem to sound edgy....especially piano. |
stay with tubes!
ARC Ref 300 or 220 can be had under $10k used. if you want to start lower, VT-200 can be had under $3k. my personal favorite is BAT VK-150SE. even though they only have 150 wpc, they should drive your VR-4 louder than you care to listen to. |
Louis1,
I have owned many famous SS amps, including BAT VK-600SE and Clayton M-100, and have heard many others, including Clayton M-300 and Pass XA-160's.
That said, while I agree with Tvad that I don't quite understand the need for that much power, I think the Clayton M-300's or the Pass XA-160's will fit in your price range used, and both will EASILY drive your speakers.
The BAT VK-600SE was very nice, but the Clayton and Pass are better, IMHO.
If you crave the tube sound, you will find a pair of VTL MB 450 series 1 or 2 will fit your price range, and also EASILY drive your speakers.
Happy hunting,
John |
People seem to either love or hate Class D amps. I went from an ARC tube amp to the Class D and the sound is great. Never a problem with not enough power either (bi-amped). |
Louis1,All the suggestions are good and the list is plentiful.Of course one or two will always get overlooked.
Because you feel a need for more power and to be sure the amp is also a match for your pre.I would suggest that you start a short list with only the amps you are able to audition in your system.This may not be possible if you are buying used but it would safeguard against a costly mistake.
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All of the brands that I prefer have already been listed.
However, I highly recommend mono blocks with whatever brand you choose. |
Having owned VR4 Gen III HSE, I believe adding subwoofers would be unnecessary and a mistake.
Buy an amp that drives them properly and you're going to be very happy. |
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I was reading a glowing, 6 Moons review of Bryston 28B's. Doesn't seem to be your typical Bryston and is the basis for the next generation SST^2 series. Looks like they go for abut $8k used. |
Here's another suggestion Louis. Keep your 100 watt tube amp and add 2 self-powered subwoofers like the Vandersteen 2Wq with their high-pass filter. This will relieve your amp from the power-sucking bass frequencies and add 600 watts of power for the 20Hz-80Hz subs. You will find the headroom of your existing amp increase enormously as well as the performance of your existing speakers. Here is a link to The Audio Perfectionist and what Richard Hardesty says about the Vandersteens. http://www.audioperfectionist.com/pages/freejournals.html Click on 'Download Revised Journal #2 Free' and then scroll down several pages till you get to SubWoofers. Only subs with a high-pass filter will allow your existing amp to gain headroom. |
Louis1-
You seem to be ignoring the DNA-500 - not sure why. 500W into 8 ohms, 800w into 4 ohms. The VR4's will be singing like you've never heard them before. The 500 drove my VR7se's incredibly easily - could have broken windows, eardrums, etc. w/o a sweat. I'm not a dealer, nor do I work for SMc, but the DNA-500 really should be on your short list. You can get one used for under $5K and its 1 of the best values in higher-end audio. |
When I owned the VR4 Gen III HSE, I owned or auditioned the following amps: VAC Phi 110/110, Channel Islands Audio D100 and D200, McCormack DNA-2 Platinum, McCormack DNA-500, Nuforce Reference 8, Odyssey Stratos Extreme Monoblocks, Moscode 401HR, and a few others that I've forgotten.
The Moscode 401HR and VAC Phi110/110 were a level above the rest. The Moscode had better bass control and bass extension and was less fussy about matching components. The VAC Phi 110/110 had the magical VAC midrange and overall clarity. It was a little fussy about the electronics in front of it, regardless of their excellence, and it could sound a little bright at times...a quality that I was always fighting with the VR4 Gen III HSE. The Moscode was extended and did not produce brightness in the speakers. |
I'm pusing 100 watts now, and sometimes it runs low on steam.
Louisl (System | Threads | Answers) Pushing 100 watts into an 89dB speaker is running out of steam when you state you listen at 90dB - 93dB? Something doesn't add up here. Perhaps the problem is that your tube amp's impedance curve doesn't match the impedance curve of your speakers (which dip down to 3 ohms...I've owned them), and therefore the bass response is anemic. This could be interpreted as running out of steam. I know firsthand the Moscode 401HR is an excellent match with the VR4 Gen III HSE. I owned this combo for a couple of years. |
TVAD,
Maybe so. The Passes would be great, but I listen to stuff loudly sometimes....(don't know what it is about those VR4's I have, but they just don't come alive until you put some juice into them!). |
Audiofeil,
I'm sure there are, but I have a kid I'm sending to private school, and a house in the burbs! Money is an issue. What suggestion you got in mind? |
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Jmcgrogan2,
I think the Clayton M300 would be more suitable, as I'm pusing 100 watts now, and sometimes it runs low on steam.
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You might want to take a look at the Karan amps. |
Kurt_Tank,
Great, great suggestion. I've heard those amps (although it's been awhile ago). I'll have to rethink all over ago now :-) |
Narrod,
Interesting....I'll do some reading. Thanks for the suggestion. |
Bar81,
You have a good suggestion (although an expensive one...even for used) with the Ayre's. Heard them at CES '08, driving a pair of the big TAD's... Holy maceral, they were great!! |
WalkerTM,
Which BAT (or BAT's) do you like? |
Louisl, any of the speakers in this thread would work.
IMO, you don't need as much power as you think you do. You have 89dB speakers and listen at 90-93dB. 4 watts will produce 92dB. 8 watts will produce 95dB. 32 watts will produce 101dB peaks.
So, with this in mind, you might consider Pass Labs XA-60.5. Frankly, you could probably get away with an XA-30.5. |
Yes, the McCormack is another I would place on my list. |
Lapierre,
That conditioner is a Running Springs Audio, Jaco. If anything, after I inserted into the system, everything was better......period. No and's, if's, or but's! |
Sidssp,
Sorry, didn't answer your question. I'm thinking in the neighborhood of 300-500 watts (big Levinson, Cary 500MD, big Clayton maybe?). |
Sidssp,
Yes, I still have the VR4's (still great speakers...after all this time together!). I've done a lot of work though on the room, by adding room treatment. Don't know why I waited so long to do it! |
TVAD,
Sorry it took a little long to respond.
MY room is 15 x 19 with coffered 8 ft. ceilings on the front wall (speaker side) and on the back wall (behind the listening chair). The sensitivity of my speakers is 89 db, and I listen at levels that average around 90-93db. In addition my room is lovingly treaated with ASC products and Acousticmac products (it's a great sounding room...even if I say so myself). |
Well, since we're all tossing out suggestions into the amplifier gene pool, I will suggest the Moscode 401HR. Outstanding amplifier that can change it's sound with some very simple tube changes.
However, I have no clue if it would be appropriate for the OP, since he has not mentioned what speakers he is using. |
I would suggest McCormack's DNA-500. IMO its got it all at that price point, with no compromises. If you haven't heard one, reading the reviews will give you a good idea of how good it really is.
Pretty much all the amps mentioned above have their supporters, and rightly so. One thing that stands out for me is that Steve M. monitors this forum and often answers questions about his products here. Customer service doesn't get much better than that, and I think sometimes that gets overlooked in the rush for the "latest, greatest, etc.." Something for you to consider.....
Good luck |
I run the CJ 350,a SS design.--It does sound better NOT plugged into my Audience conditioner. |
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02-16-09: Philefreak
It's funny to me how Pass's pure class A sounds different from Plinius or Clayton pure class A. Would it also then be funny how one triode tube amp could sound different from another triode tube amp? How about one turntable sounding different from another turntable? Or maybe one CDP sounding different from another CDP? Etc, etc, etc. This hobby is filled with funny stuff. John |
