Attention Scientists, Engineers and Na-s


Isn't it funny how timing works. With all the different discussions on proving this, show me fact on that and the psycho acoustical potential of the other thing an article comes along with the same topics and some REAL potential answers. I received my newest copy of "The Audiophile Voice" Vol.7, Issue1 today and on page 16 is an article written by David Blair and Bill Eisen titled "In The Matter Of Noise". The article focuses on disturbance noise but has some reference to thermal noise, low frequency noise and shot noise, and our ability to measure these noises with the equipment of today. We have measured noise as low as 6x10 to the power of -5, or approximately a few cycles per day. We have also found through laboratory testing that the human brain is stimulated with frequencies from just above 0Hz to just below 50kHz. U.S. Department of Defense documents also show studies of low frequency activity below measurable levels and there various affects.
The article then begins to talk about out of band (hearing) noise and in band noise produced by our electronic equipment and the potential of these noises effecting our sound system. The assumptions are that "disturbance noises rob our systems of dynamics, low-level information, tonal purity and stage depth". These effects are for the most part overlooked and misunderstood by the scientific communities. They say they think that our speakers being hit with "massive quantities of R.F.I. are affected" A very good quote referring to power filters was "Effective noise control imposes no sonic tradeoffs or downside." How often have the discussions here on Audiogon focused on what they are doing? A very interesting comment was that Teflon is capable of carrying 40-Kilovolts static charge, and the industry is touting this as a great insulator for audio signals, that's scarey!
Now I bring this to light because I believe the view of the "Scientists and Engineers" here on Audiogon is so narrow that they are failing to see the exciting challenges in front of them. If all these noises do exist, which they do, and they can be transmitted and received through our systems, isn't possible, just maybe feasible that the insulation of our wires, the casing of our dedicated lines the size and shape of the conductor could, just maybe effect the sound? Isn't it even possible that forces set off by electrical components could be interfering in some so far unmeasured and inaudible way affecting the sound. Do you all test within the full spectrum of 0Hz to 50Khz for every possible situation? Or is it possible, just ever so small of a chance that you are overlooking a whole new science yet unexplored. Doesn't that, even slightly excite your little scientific fossils?
Man if I was younger, healthier and wanted a challenge. This is a career if you'd just climb out from behind you oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzer and see the world is indeed still spinning, and yes, it is 2001. Remember how 30 years ago 2001 was going to be so exciting. What the hell have the Scientist, Engineers and Na-sayers who tote there stuff here on Audiogon done for the advancement of science. Anyone, have any of you really broken through! J.D.
128x128jadem6
Jade - I would be willing to bet you any amount of money (well, say up to $10,000) that you would be unable to hear the difference in line cords in a true double blind experiment. The reason this psychology business is treacherous is that people REALLY do believe they hear a difference. And it isn't that there is something wrong with anyone, its just the way the mind works.

So, try a test where neither you nor the person scoring the test knows which cord is installed. Make sure there is no possible clue as to which cord is connected. See how you do.
Fpeel - What are some of things that believers think sound better, yet they attribute to psychology?
If you read my post in "blind tests" you would know I've done quite a bit of testing. I'm sure my procedures will not meet your criteria in that you insist on your point. With that said, I'm done with you and Jostler for the time being. If anyone else wants to have a constructive discussion and continue this line of thought please do and I would love to join in. I do however refuse to discuss this with you two any more. You have already cause enough damage on these three threads and through it all you have yet to bring anything constructive to the table. J.D.
In discussions of scientific theory Stephen Hawking states that "any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with a theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory." I propose the theory made by our "experts" here on Audiogon is that in that all wire and cable will test identical when a charge is past through it, then the prediction has been made that there will be no audible difference. I further propose that the observations made by the masses here at Audiogon through blind testing and simple comparison contradict the stated theory, thus the theory is false. It's simple to see and provable in my opinion.
Up until 1969 when Caltech physicist Murry Gell-Mann won his Nobel prize for work that discovered quarks it was believed that protons and neutrons were the "elementary" particles. Of course sense then we've defined six different quarks, and we believe that these are not the smallest but only another layer of building blocks that create mater. It is now know through quantum mechanics that all particles are in fact waves, and that the higher the energy of a particle, the smaller the wavelength of the corresponding wave. We can even go beyond this and talk about the effects of weak nuclear forces. These were not really described until 1967 and has subsequently been used to describe the unification of particle behavior and it's interaction with electromagnetic forces. My point here is that in the past 30 years the very definition of physics has been rewritten. Our understanding of the effects of all forces on wave energy is maybe in it's infancy, so for anyone to claim absolute is surly not a scientist, but rather an ill informed trouble maker. I believe the interaction of a number of physical phenomenon could play a part in how electrical charges behave and react with-in our components and should be a part in our discussions. I go back to my earlier posts, IS IT POSSIBLE...?
For us to look at the leading edge of physics and say none of these discoveries or theories have bearing on electronics is just simply silly. Do you think for one minute that Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, Galileo Galilei, etc would accept the weak scientific stand that a few here have proposed? Of course not, but then they were not afraid to take a risk of being proven wrong in there theories. I hope the people on this site will learn to simply not respond to these folks until they show a true interest in learning, and that we can continue to talk through there static. (Oh yea, static is not possible, forgot)
I wish my passion was electronics rather than cosmology, then I'd have a damn leg to stand on. That's why I need your help out there. J.D.
Stevemj - your claim that power cords cannot make a difference strikes me as exposing the fact you have not tried listening for yourself with an open mind. There will be many here that have tried power cables (on decent systems and on suitable music) and found very significant differences. Of course, when I say significant, I mean musically significant, whereas I suspect you would assume I was claiming something else. But then again your frame of reference does not appear to be music at all. As it happens, I organised and participated in a blind test where three of us were subjected to four different power cables being substituted by a fourth person according to sequences that had no discernible pattern - I wish I had the sequence available to me now to show you. I happened to know the sound of each of these cables very well, and had refreshed my memory of them on the music sample we were using immediately before the test. Another participant was a "golden ears" who was given no prior familiarity, except in the lead-in to the test. The third was a novice. At first we just used two cables, the best of them and the stock cord. Then we used all four, for a real test of our hearing ability. Not surprisingly to me all three of us could reliably pick the cables in the two cable comparison (I was 100%, so was Golden Ears, and the novice was 69%). When we mixed four up, it was much harder. I got it wrong twice, Golden Ears had no trouble distinguishing the two cables used in the first experiment but mixed up the other two a lot of the time, and the novice got terribly confused and worn out by the whole thing. You will have to appreciate that I am going from memory on something we did a year or so ago, and which I only did to satisfy my curiosity. This was my one and only attempt at a double blind test and it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. Now you will ask me for documentary proof. I suppose I could get affidavits from the four people involved if you really need it.