Herron VTSP-3A

IMO the 1A/166 is outstanding, having owned one. The 3A is able to move the listener to the 1st row from the 9th row with the 1A. I love being very close to the soloist, so the 3A is a blissfully satisfying musical component. If you enjoy sitting not all that far back at concerts, the 1A is absolutely the most muic for the money. I easily gave up my previous other manu., reference pre after a quarter century of loyalty (through a few previous pre mod. upgrades and one major model change). IMO Herron's preamps help define the ne plus ultra, I believe is a phrase not easily found in english, except for the Maine phrases " none bettah " and " finest kind "

I soon will be the owner of a vtsp 1a 166 pre, how does it's sound compare to the vtsp 2 and 3 versions?

Cool Thanks Wig. I guess I should have read the manual some more. :).

Kclone,

By pushing the phono button on the unit for a few seconds will switch the unit from low to high or vise versa.

I was just reading back through this thread. I saw a couple of comments (one from Rossop)on running it in high gain or low gain or full gain to half gain to get better range on the volume. Huh? How is that? There is not a gain switch or anything. What am I missing here?

The pre is still wonderful. I am so glad I bought this pre. I have changed everything in my system in the last year, even tried a couple of integrated's but with whatever configuration I put together, it never sounded as good with out the VTSP 3A in the mix.

Alan9810,

It will only get better. Enjoy...

I just had my Herron VTSP-3 upgraded to the VTSP-3A.

The improvements are quite significant, not subtle at all. I really found it hard to believe that the overall performance of my VTSP-3 could be improved this much as I was quite happy with the sound before.

The sound stage is now deeper and the overall sound is much richer with greater detail - the layers of the onion have been peeled away. It is as significant as going from a CD to an LP - improved resolution, sound staging, imaging and dynamics - an overall quantum leap ahead. With high resolution media my system now comes frighteningly close to simulating a live performance, a goal we all pursue.

Guys,

I changed the stock fuses to Hi-FI gold tuning fuses on the power mains for pre and amps and boy did it make a difference. I'm shocked by the increase in bass not to mention sharper more defined images, deeper soundstage and lower floor noise. My next step will be to replace the main fuses on the grid with the new supreme fuses. This $150 change is far superior to $500 power cord change.

When I first got my Herron 3A, I listened with the Polarity Switch in each of the A & B settings, determined which was the correct one for the right polarity and have not touched it in two years. I leave it on 24/7 unless I am going to be away from home for an extended period of time.
violin

Hey guys. How about the AC Polarity switch? Do you mess with is much to see if it sounds better in the A or B position?

Thanks for the reply. I tried low-gain mod and it is almost as quiet as SS so it may not be the tubes. Mine 3A is brand new only 2 weeks old! I think it goes down to power supply or a mismatch with gain input from power amp. I have same problem with Conrad Johnson P350 and VTSP-2 but there is no low gain option to play with. Going back to 3A, it does have a much fuller body tan 2 and I have to madke do treatments to neutralise the bass. Anyway, my system has raised to another level and I have since been listening to it everynight, this is something I have not done for years!

Mine stays on 24/7

So, is everyone else leaving their's on 24/7? I never really shut mine off.

I apologize for all of the mispellings in my prior post. In the future I will proof read my posts before hitting the submit key. Oh well....

Sflazor

I have the same sssss but I have had that on every piece of equipment I've owned. I chock it up to dirty power even with a power conditioner.

Luna,

I have the 3A and it is dead quiet. Indeed, it is as quiet as the best of the solid state pre-amps, but is far more musical than any solid state pre. I bet you have a noisy tube that is causing the sound that you are hearing. You will not need to replace the tube. You merely will need to swith its position with one of the other tubes. Call Keith and ask him which two tubes you should switch. He will know. In the past I developed a similar noise in my VTSP-3 after a year of use, and I checked with Keith. He told me to switch the positions of two tubes and that resulted in absolute silence--like magic. I asked about my replacing the formerly noisy tube and he told me no to do so. It said it had years of use left in it, but that it merely needed to be in a different location so that its noisy characteristic would not affect the sound of the pre-amp. Keith is a part genius and part magician. I have not encountered any issues and certainly no noise with the 3A. I bet your issue with background noise or "fuzz" is the product of a noisy tube. The 3A is a superlative pre-amp. Let me know what happens.

Sflazor

Does your amp have a gain switch or something?

No, I heard it from my seat! Spoken to Keith and he did say it has to do with gains matching with power amps. Anything below 24db is good. I tried low gain and it's quiet but that mod does not sound as lively as in High gain. My friend told me to unearth all grounds and use dedicated power line. I will be going that path to be my next goal.

I have not heard the fuzz in my system, but I haven't put the ear up close either. It also could be the amp?

I would like to input to this thread again as I have finally got my new 3A last week. I did not like the 3 but 3A is totally different! -- “Very Musical”--. The VTSP-2 is more neutral but a little lean, yet cleaner from top to bottom. 3A has more body and its bass goes much deeper. It is also more vivid in texture and tones. I think it sounds more like a tube-amp now than before. My friend got the earliest version of 3A and there seems to be some changes inside!! We believed this latest batches sounds a tinny bit warmer but even more musical than those before!
I would like to ask if anyone has background noise with the amps, with ‘ssssss’ noises when there is no music! I heard it very quiet in my friend’s place but I have background noise in my setup! I hope someone and give me some advice.

Great to hear all the positive responses about Herron gear. Keith Herron is a first rate gentleman who makes some of the best high end gear out there. I haven't used his VTSP preamps but I owned a VTPH-1mc+ and just upgraded to the VTPH-2 phono preamp. It is so quiet (especially given it has tubes), and so musical, and it draws the energy and organic presence out of the vinyl in a way other phono preamps fail to. Just like Basis Audio (and founder/CEO A.J. Conti), we are fortunate to have US based audio companies like Herron where the owners/founders spend their time bringing absolutely superbly engineered/built products to market, versus spending their time hyping or marketing sub-par components like many other audio brands do.

Since the Lamm is off topic, and I don't want to hijack the Herron thread, I will send you an e-mail.

Mitch2,

Thanks for the reply. If you ever try that out, please let us know.
BTW, I ended up buying a Lamm LL2 Deluxe, after much research. Your posts played a role towards my decision, so I'm particularly interested. Have you tweaked your Lamm in any way?
The MUSE sounds interesting.

No, Lewinski, unfortunately I have not yet tried the Herron and I am currently running a MUSE Model Three Signature preamp with outboard display/power supply into my balanced Clayton M300 amps. Although nowhere near as expensive as some preamps I have owned, the MUSE is holding it's own and is a very good preamp for the money, offering incredible features such as a volume control with 255 steps (displayed in absolute 0.5 dB increments), gain adjustment/matching for each input, phase switch, balance, mute, and ability to remain always on. It also offers very impressive clarity and resolution, while being quiet, very dynamic (26dB gain), and providing a sound that is slightly on the warm side of neutral and more dimensional and “meaty” than many SS products.

I will be curious to see what I think of the MUSE after putting the Lamm back in my system and comparing the two.

I would still like to try the Herron, but for now I am more interested in hearing very good fully balanced preamps that will mate better with my amps, since I have to use Jensen transformers to convert single-ended outputs to balanced when using single-ended preamps.

Since this thread was brought back, I was wondering if Mitch got to try the Herron vs the Lamm. Mitch?

Received my VTSP 3A last night, cold out of the box and all I can say is WOW! Rich, dynamic with you can almost grab images. You can almost feel the emotions of the Violin and Cello player in "You raise me up" track. I definitely feel like I've been transported and loving it and I have many more hours of play before the unit is at its best.

Kudos to Keith at Herron for his dedication to music and his devotion in designing audio playback components that captures the original performance.

I can't wait to get the kids in bed tonight for more therapy sessions :o)

Did I just stumble upon a pot of gold...

Indeed Fig. Congrats on becoming a dealer. A little more commentary on the preamp. People need to ignore the price on the VTSP-3a. If you think it cost to much and you are one of those caught up in this hobby (as most on this board are), it will actually save you money. You will not feel the need to move up or anywhere from where you are with the VTSP-3a. On the other end, if you don't think the VTSP-3A is "high end" enough for you, don't worry about it. It's performance will compete with stuff that cost A LOT more.

I need to also disclose that I am now a dealer for Keith and became one only after becoming a customer of Herron Audio. I am so impressed with the sound his gear makes that I am making an investment in high end audio as a business venture.

I've been at this hobby for almost 30 years and Keith's VTSP-3A preamp and VTPH-2 phono stage are great sounding products and I say this after using some of the best, including Supratek, CJ, CAT, Hovland and many others. They are, in fact, the best phono stage and preamp I have ever used.

I am awaiting my pair of M1's that will attempt to take the place of a pair of incredible sounding Pass XA100.5 amplifiers. I would love to have been given the chance to represent Pass, but unfortunately I am not a brick and mortar store and in a small market surrounded by larger markets. Keith, on the other hand, has given me the opportunity to offer his gear and I am happy to be given the chance to do this.

Beside the wonderful sound quality his gear re-produces, Keith is a true gentleman and his products are professionally engineered and built, with great ergonomics and useful features. As noted, he also is customer service friendly and very dependable, which is often not common in this industry. I could tell stories.....

I'll report on how the M1's compare to the Pass amps, once delivered and broken in, but for anyone interested in a preamp or phono stage, please search out your local Herron dealer and give a listen to this gear. You won't be sorry.

I have the VTSP-3A, the VTPH-2 and four M1's. The two preamps are standouts but the M1's are all class as well. As I said before: they just do their job(very well).
When I first got my Herron gear I had trouble with the pre 'dropping out' all the time. This was not the fault of the pre but due to the fact I was running it through a step down transformer. The voltage was too low. First Keith Herron replaced the preamp straight out. When the problem persisted with the new pre he bent over backwards assisting me to rectify the problem.
When I updated to the 3A I was having a problem of some harshness at higher volume levels and Keith pointed me in the right direction(cheap and nasty interconnects).
It would have been easy for him to let me go figure but he helped me out every time I had an enquiry.
Sound like a lovefest I suppose but I really appreciated his help. A lot of designers would not do this.
Im not a dealer,just a happy customer!

I own a VTSP-3A and VTPH-2 and based on the sound of these two components, I have also ordered a pair of of M1's and have become a dealer for Keith here in Western North Carolina.

This is great sounding audio gear and I've owned a lot over the last 30 years.

The M1's will be taking the place of a pair of Pass XA100.5's and this will truly be a test of how Keith's amps sound. I love the Pass amps, but cannot become a dealer for them so I will take a shot here.

I'll try to keep you guys updated.

I run Focus Audio FS888. They are about 91db sensitive and a fairly easy load to drive. As I said before the M1s do a great job. They don't run out of steam and since the upgrade of the preamp I use the low gain setting because of the reprogrammed volume contour. I like to use 40-60 on the volume display. Unless you are in a very large space the M1s have plenty of grunt.

Hi Rossop,

Just out of curiosity, what speakers do you have that you are biamping using the (4) M1's? Do the M1's do an adequate job on the low end, i.e., have enough grunt?

Bill

I bi amp using four M1's. The power amps do what good power amps supposed to do (very well). They just do their job day in day out. They don't get in the way of the music they just amplify. No drama!

With the updated SP3a. I was using some rather cheap and nasty interconnects with my SP3 and did not notice anything wrong with them. However the 3a is much more revealing so, in order to subdue some harshness when I updated, I updated the interconnects as well. Fixed things up nicely, thank you very much!

Bill & Rackon: Great descriptions of the sound of Herron gear, and very accurate IMO. Disclosure: I retail Herron equipment, Departure Audio.
I would like to reiterate a point I made earlier in this thread: In addition to the great sonics, the Herron designs are extremely flexible with a very intelligent feature set, great ergonomics, exceptional reliability and excellent after-sale support. In my experience, these things are very important for long-term satisfaction, and not always present in all high performance audio equipment.
Herron components are not flashy, but the really important stuff is more than accounted for.
I am using the VTSP3a and M1's to drive various Canton and Green Mountain Audio speaker models. The Herron gear brings out the best in whatever it is linked to. I have'nt found a combination of speakers, source components, cables, etc. that the Herron gear did not play well with and assert its many virtues. I also agree that there is a nice synergy between the VTSP pre and the M1 amps (I have found this to be true with most front end gear and generally advise people to stay with one manufacturers electronics, where possible).
I characterize the Herron sound as smooth, natural, refined, grain-free and non fatiguing. IMO, Herron has some similarity to Blue Circle Audio equipment, which, surprise, I also sell. There are differences, but both are well designed, well made, natural/neutral/musical sounding, and, most importantly, very satisfying over the long term.

Just to amplify Bill's assessment of the Herron amps - they are WAY WAY underrated in the audiophile community. Terrific amps and highly synergistic with the preamps.

I think the disregard for the Herron amps is partly that few have actually heard them, and largely because when the M150s were first produced a review pair or two with incorrectly set bias that got away from Keith prematurely - there was a "meh" review in Stereophile and people didn't read subsequent reviews in other publications which praised the amps. The take was: terrific preamps. (BTW, I've never seen a review of the newer amps other than lavish praise at audio shows and would love for someone to point one out to me. To read reviews you'd think all Herron Audio makes are preamps and phono stages.)

My M150s sounded to me like Keith took the best attributes of ss amps and combined them with many of the virtues of tubed amps. The 150s themselves (and I would assume the M1s are similar to the 150s) don't have an obvious sonic signature per se - a GOOD thing in my estimation (being neutral ought not to be a fault!). But it can render the Herron amps a bit difficult to discuss without a simple handle to hang onto them.

When people would ask me what the amps sounded like I'd always respond that "they sound like music"...which wasn't an exaggeration but perhaps not terribly instructive to someone who hasn't heard them.

The 150s were harmonically accurate, grain free, very natural sounding amps that let you hear the "gestalt" of the music playing through them - they got out of the way. I didn't notice the amps, I was just loving the glorious music. (My M150s were paired with the Herron VTSP-1-166a)

However, so many people don't even know what non-amplified "natural" music even sounds like they have no reference for this and thus tend to think there must be something lacking in an amp praised as "neutral". And indeed, some listeners prefer a warmish, non-neutral sound...which is OK but not what Herron gear is about. The M-150s are also bi-polar amps, and many of that ilk can sound lean or cool. The M150s don't (and I assume neither do the M1s) but history was against them.

So what DO they sound like? I still can't precisely describe them but the M150s are one of the few ss state amps I've heard that have the "ease" and "flow" one finds in tubed amps, plus the harmonic accuracy that is so pleasing in tube gear. They display the richness of real instruments, if it's there in the recording, yet they are NOT euphonic, warmish or fuzzy, as many so called tube-like ss amps are. Neither are they lean or cool. They don't add - they don't subtract.

I've heard them with Alons (Circes and Vs) and Audio Physic Avanti IIIs and the bass was prodigious - not exaggerated, as alas some define "good" bass. These are current hungry speakers but not terribbly diffucult loads. (Keith once told me he did final voicings of the M150s on his Circes, which may account for much.)

I have a friend who bi-amped his Pro-Ac Response 3.8s, which are a bit tougher to drive than the above speakers, with 2 pairs of the 150Ms, ditching much more expensive (and highly praised) Clayton and Rowland amps. The Pro-Acs sound amazing with the Herrons and I would suggest that if your bass is a hair on the lean side you consider doing this. It may not be an issue with the M1s, and talking with Keith probably the best bet for any questions. If you aren't using a Herron preamp, then I would look not to the amps but to your pre. I simply can't imagine bass lacking with either the Herron pre VTPH2/VTPH-3a and M150 amp combinations.

Bottom line - the M150s are one of the great bargains in high end audio. Highly recommended! I wish I still owned them!!

(FYI, I'm not a violinist, but I've played keyboards and organ for years, sang in chamber, symphonic and church choirs - even played briefly in a rock band in college. I don't have golden ears but I do have a fairly good idea of what music in the real world sounds like...again, I understand some people aren't terribly interested in "realistic" sounding music reproduction, but for those of us that are, the Herron gear is a bargain.)

Hi Kclone,

As I stated earlier, I am running Keith's M-150's along with the VTSP-2 right now, the preamp being a very recent acquisition and the M-150's being in the system for about the past 2 years. I bought them, without any audition, on a recommendation of an audiophile buddy whose ears I really trust.

To make a long story short, I really like these amps. Again, they are vastly underrated in the audiophile community. No, they won't win any awards for beauty, but they have it where it counts. I have compared them to a Spectron Musician 3 Mk II, Pass 350.5, McCormack DNA-500, and Clayton M-100 monoblocks. The Herrons came out ahead of them all, some by a wide margin, some a little. The one knock on the Herrons is the touch of leanness in the low end that I believe may be due to a limitation in current output (but I may be wrong here).

The only amps I have owned that bettered the Herrons were Atma-Sphere MA2 Mk2.3 monoblocks being driven with an AS MP1 Mk2 preamp. This really isn't a very fair comparison considering the price difference however.

What the Herron amps in my system are natural timbres, lack of grain, great space around instruments, and very good micro/macrodynamics. They are one of the few SS amps I have heard that make strings sound like strings, very important to me as I listen to a fair amount of classical music. If you like tube amps, you might want to give these a try as they have just a hint of tube magic in them as well. This is not to say that they "sound like tube amps."

They certainly did sound better in all ways being matched with the Herron preamp. I won't be selling them anytime soon. They can be had for a song right now also on the 'Gon. I haven't had a single problem with mine in the 2 years I've had them either. Add to that Keith's great customer service. What more could you want?

Bill

Great thread guys. I just want to weigh in on my brief experience with the VTPH-2. I bought it directly from Keith in December as I have no dealer anywhere nearby. I am happy to echo all comments already made on his outstanding customer service. I had mentioned to him that I had a cache of RCA 12AX7s and really wanted to try tube rolling. He was very tolerant of the idea, not trying to talk me out of it in the least. "Tolerant" would be the operative term, given the effort for which he is famously known for putting into his choice of tubes. I originally favored the version using 4X12AX7s (69dB gain) and in the course of our discussions, he inquired as to my preamp's input impedance. Learning that I had a relatively low 20K impedance, he gently implied that the 64dB gain version, using 2X12AX7s, would be a better match, though either would be fine and he was happy to provide whichever version I preferred. I told him that I wanted to hear his best effort, so took delivery on the 64dB version.

The VTPH-2 has totally transformed my audio experience, which is saying a lot for one who has been in this hobby for 40 years. There have been many incremental improvements (and a few mis-steps) over the years but I can't think of any that has been so significant. Vinyl has taken on a lifelike quality that at first was disorienting. The experience is so engaging that I find it hard to shut things down to turn in for the night. It has all been said above but for me the music is just so "right". Like violin above, I spent many years playing the violin in orchestras and chamber groups so have a very firm aural impression of how acoustic instruments sound. Keith simply gets it down completely. If I could single out one attribute, it might be in the area of bass. In a system with which I was already quite happy, I frequently find myself looking up at the speakers dumbfounded at how solid and tuneful a bass line is that had always previously been a nondescript part of the musical fabric. It is never overbearing or out of proportion, it's just right and often it makes more sense to the musical line as a whole. I can't justify changing preamps right now, but I am giving it serious thought for the future. BTW, I have rolled in some vintage tubes and do think that the sound is marginally sweeter. It doesn't seem to be a large enough difference to recommend going out and acquiring NOS tubes, but it seems to be a nice diversion for one who already has the tubes at hand.

I just love this preamp, of course I have already praised it enough above. Herron can make such a great product like the VTSP-3A at their price point, which to me is a heck of a value, but how are their amps? I have read a little about them on the net, but not a whole lot from owners. Anyone with good experience on the Herron amps?

Thanks for the info, Sfflzor, I really like my VTSP2 so much that I may be biased! I actually listened to the 3A once. The sound is very real and noticable more quiet. But the whole system was top-end stuff. I will be looking forward for more positive reviews on this product.

Thanks for the info, Sflazor and Kclone.

Bill

Luna and others: anyone has an opinion about the sound differences of VTSP-2 vs. Lamm LL2? It will be used with a McIntosh MC275.
I understand the differences in ergonomics and other features, but can't listen to both. I've talked to people who own the LL2 and the 275, but no one with the VTSP2 and 275.
Thoughts?

Thanks!
Horacio

Luna, the VTSP-3A is head and shoulders above the VTSP-3. It is far more musical. I find myself saying over and over, "That is a beautiful piece of music." The 3A is so perfect that I never feel inclined to use the word "neutral." Neutral is far too sterile a term to use when describing the 3A. I would not use the words "tube like" either because those terms can imply that a preamp is warm and slow. The 3A just sounds like the TRUTH. When I listen to the 3A, I feel like it is perfect in every way. You certainly know that you are listening to a tube preamp rather than a solid state preamp because no solid state preamp sounds this liquid and life-like. The 3A is not lacking in any respect. As you listen to it, you will find that you finally will quit looking for more or for better in any aspect of its performance. The bass is fabulous; the treble is extended beyond the capabilities of one's hearing; and its voicing is just plain SWEET and BEAUTIFUL. If any of you have not yet heard the 3A, you absolutely must listen to this wonderful preamp. Keith Herron should have called it the VTSP-5 rather than the 3A--he deserves the recognition that such a change in numbering or name would have garnered. He did not merely upgrade the 3A; he took his already great preamp to an entirely different level of performance. I have listened to the Audio Research Reference 3, the Conrad Johnson CT-5, the Krell Evolution 202, Parasound Halo JC2, VTL 6.5 and 7.5, Modwright 36.5 and many others--none of these can touch the Herron VTSP-3A for accuracy of timbre, for sonic realism, or for beauty and clarity of sound. I am not a dealer, and I have no allegiance to Herron Audio other than the fact that I LOVE this preamp and highly respect the gentleman who has put so much effort into providing the best piece of equipment possible. The VTSP-3A is an absolute steal at its selling price. Billspecfoc inquired about the use of tube dampers or footers. I have not tried tube dampers and would not recommend them. If they would be a source of sonic improvement, you can be sure Keith Herron would ship the VTSP-3A with tube dampers. They are inexpensive and there would be no reason not to use them if they mattered on this preamp. Footers are another story--I highly recommend Stillpoints. I have installed them under every piece of gear in my system other than my Rowland Model 10 amp. This amp is so inert in its design that I did not notice any improvement when it was used with Stillpoints or any other footers or isolation devices. The Stillpoints add a worthwhile touch of clarity and focus to every other component in my system. Again, the clarity and focus that they add comes with no negatives--they do not instill any sterility or any clinical sound. They just sound RIGHT and true to my ears. As you undoubtedly can gather from my remarks, I highly value accuracy of timbre, clarity, detail, beauty or sweetness of sound in the sense of realism and liquidity, deep bass, and extended treble. The VTSP-3A and the Stillpoints exhibit these characteristics in spades. Give them both a try--you will not look back.

Based on a recommendation from Sflazor, I am using Still Points under mine.

Is anyone out there using any tube dampers in their Herron pre's? Also, what about isolation devices underneath the pre? Right now, I just have mine sitting on a Flexi-rack made out of hard maple shelves, about 1.25" thick. Thanks.

Bill

Nice to hear so many posted on Herrons. I have a different story, I am a very early user of VTSP-2, loved the unit. Upgraded to version 2, than to version 3. I did not like Ver.3 at all and actually swapped it back!! I found it has more performance but robbed the silly smooth highs. I just felt it's somehow a little harsh or to say less relaxes. Version 2 sounds more like a tube amp and version 3 is too neutral that leans towards SS! I wonder what sonic character is 3A compared to version3 …more neutral or more emotion….?

You can roll the tubes - but I don't see the point.

1. The preamps already sound superb. SUPERB.

2. Keith voices the Herron gear incredibly cunningly. He chooses his tubes exceedingly carefully, for reliability as well as fidelity. These things are darned near bombproof. He designs around these specifically chosen tubes, ones that he knows will sound great and give long life without changing sound. They aren't exotic, so you can replace them if you ever need to.

3. Part of the beauty of Herron gear is it's neutral without being colorless or lean - neutral in the best sense of that word i.e. "natural" sounding, just getting the hell outa the way of the music.

4. Although Herron gear is less sensitive to cables and PCs than most tube gear I've had (and that's true of the Herron ss amps too), you'd probably get more mileage for less trouble by replacing the stock cord than rolling the tubes.

5. Every dedicated tube roller I know of that swapped out the stock tubes eventually put 'em back. You look at the humble stock tube and think: "what if I substituted XYZ NOS tube? Must be awesome..." Not. Please see #2 and #3 above.

6. If, after all that, you just have to swap the tubes, talk to Keith first. Really.

After listening to my updated VTSP-3A (from VTSP-3) for a few weeks I would like to add a few comments.
Much more detail and dynamics with greater bass heft are the main plusses. Also increased soundstage width and depth are more apparent with greater stereo separation.
I bi-amp using 4 Herron Audio M-1 monoblocks. Before the upgrade I used to listen at about 48 on the pre. Since the upgrade it is down to 38. Anything above 42-45 got a bit harsh for me. This is due in part because of prolonged break in and, I think more importantly, the fact that Keith Herrron has reprogrammed the volume contour so it gets a good deal louder after about 35. What I have done (as Keith suggested) is drop down from full gain to half gain on the pre. This was a good move I believe as it enables me to use a greater range of volume. It has also reduced the harshness I was experiencing to almost none and I'm sure it will go right away with full break in. A big thanks to Keith Herron!

Kclone I agree with you completely. My 3A that I just got back last Monday has improved so much just breaking in that I do not see how any tube rolling would help.

They can be rolled, but it seems for those of us that have heard the 3A don't see the need to roll because it sounds good enough as it is.