Hi efficient speaker, bass problems


I know i'm going to take a severe tongue lashing for asking this question but . Is it me , whenever I hear low efficient speakers they don't seem to have a grip on the bass like less sensitive units ? The amount of bass is there , and some have good weight , and punch , but where is the control ?
tmsorosk
Hi Duke,
Not overly important, but your last post was responding to Lewhite.
Tim
Hi Duke,
Well after you got my attention by putting my handle in your post, I read your post thoroughly. I see your point completely and can see this happening, but won't that same speaker create frequency dips in some rooms? and/or do you recommend this speaker for certain types of rooms or placement?
You're absolutely right Timlub - my bad! It was indeed Lewhite I was responding to! Thus dissolves my illusion of infallibility...

Okay to answer the questions which I think actually did come from you this time, the subject of room interaction dips (and peaks) is almost a different topic from the one I addressed. One could argue that a speaker which goes deeper is likely to have more peaks and dips simply because its wider bandwidth gives the room more opportunity to screw things up. But beyond that, I don't see any reason why a low-tuned box with a low-damping-factor amp would result in a room-interaction dip. If you're talking about a sag in the bass response above the tuning frequency, actually that's more likely to happen using a conventional amplifier with a low-Q woofer that's in a somewhat oversized vented box. If you have a modelling program, the effect of low damping factor is to raise the apparent Qes of the speaker (without correspondingly lowering its efficiency... hence, a "free lunch").

Oversimplifying a bit, you can get bass boost from boundary reinforcement or from a low output impedance amplifier. The two can work in your favor, or work against you... but if you can adjust the tuning frequency of the box, that can help a great deal.

Now since you brought up the topic of dips, I'll bring up the topic of peaks, so now we're talking about peaks and dips, which arise from speaker/room interaction. They are inevitable. My preferred technique for addressing them is to use four small subwoofers scattered asymmetrically around the room. This way each will produce a different peak-and-dip pattern at any location in the room, because each is a different distance from each of the room boundaries (in the horizontal plane anyway), and the sum of these multiple dissimilar peak-and-dip patterns ends up being pretty darn smooth. Now if we're talking about two speakers and no subs, one way to introduce some of this staggering/smoothing effect is to place the port on the rear of the speaker, at a different height than the woofer. Toe this speaker in fairly aggressively, and the woofer and port are each a different distance from the room boundaries in all three dimensions! Of course the port is fairly close to the wall in this scenario so it's getting a lot of boundary reinforcement, but that's been taken into account in the design stage (and/or the port's tuning frequency is user-adjustable).

In my experience paying all this extra attention to room interaction makes more of a difference in small rooms than it does in large ones.

Since I've been referring to free lunches here and there, let me mention one more that comes along with low damping factor tube amps (like those atmasphere makes): Their characteristics help to partially counteract thermal compression. Thermal compression arises when the voice coil heats up, and when that happens its resistance rises. Taking an extreme example here, at high power levels your 8-ohm woofer may become, in effect, a 10-ohm woofer. Not only does it take more power to push your woofer, but a high-damping-factor (constant voltage) amplifier will actually put out less wattage into that increased impedance, making a bad situation even worse. On the other hand a low-damping-factor amplifier will put out the same or perhaps even somewhat increased wattage into the higher impedance! So if you plan on pushing your speakers hard, and you hate dynamic compression, you might look for speakers that work well with that type of amplifier. Not that this is the biggest of free lunches out there, but it's at least on the menu.

Imho, and as we all now know, I'm hardly infallible...

Duke
Hi Duke,
This all makes sense, back in my old days at SpeakerCraft/Marcof, we made a line speakers called Rock Boxes, We didn't call it thermal compression, but we did talk a fair amount about voice coil temperature rising and increased resistance. So in short, my guess seemed correct that you teach how to use your speakers to get the most out of room interaction with their placement. In my current speakers, an mtm, they are mirror imaged. I rear ported the ports in at an angle for the sole purpose of experimenting with how the speakers would react to room interaction. It clearly makes a difference. Not a world different from making a low qtc in a sealed box design to properly interact with a room. Obviously alot tougher with a ported box, but I love the variable port idea.
Thanks for your thoughts and good listening, Tim
Duke, some of us are not so enamored with the sound of most loudspeakers with ported bass.