Is there an advantage to more tubes in an amp?


I'm not really familiar with tube amp design, so I really don't have an understanding of how the number of tubes affect the sound of an amp.

Do more tubes allow you to minimize the sonic effects of a single tube within the group?

Do more output tubes give you more power?

Are amps with fewer tubes "more pure" and "cleaner"?

How do Current Source Tubes and Input Tubes affect the sound of an amp?

Thanks in advance.
Nicholas Renter
128x128nrenter
A knowlagable is clueless indeed.

Good thing mentioned here about distortion that is the main factor in sonic signature of tube. And it's so close to the real-time live accoustics.
Clueless did a very nice job of presenting a great yet brief over-view of the subject AND took the time to provide a vast amount of resources for those that are interested in learning. Kudo's to him for helping to educate those that are willing to learn and sharing his love for tube based audio devices. His post really was "glowing" in content : )

Having said that, I would like to highlight one specific point that Gs brings up. At the same time, this one sentence is phenomenally simple yet highly elegant in terms of the idea expressed:

"But as a rule of thumb, the more output devices means the more careful (read: expensive)the circuit design, since there are more devices it's easier to corrupt the current flow."

If the circuit is not fully optimized, the chances of circuit instability, distortion, saturation of power supplies / output transformers, etc.. becomes more significant as output and number of output devices increase. On top of this, i've found that tubes ( even from the same manufacturer ) have a far wider level of operating tolerances than SS devices. As such, the more tubes that you run in a circuit, the greater the chances for circuit instability / reduced performance levels. Most of this has to due with differences in the internal conductance characteristics of the tubes themselves and stray capacitance within the circuit they are used in. More parts equals increased complexity of both parts and circuitry.

As Clueless hints at, simpler "may" be better but it is all about the individual quality of the design / circuit and what one is looking for / willing to accept as trade-offs in a design and a system.

As a side note, i've found some tube based RF amps that worked better after plucking a few tubes out of the output section. After re-tuning the circuit, power output was up, distortion was reduced, the load on the power supply was lowered, etc.... All of this has to do with the above-mentioned reasons of tubes being mismatched and "fighting each other", stray capacitance, transformer / power supply saturation, etc... I'm quite certain that the same thing occurs in audio based designs that try to achieve "gonzo" levels of output. The more output devices you have, the more closely they have to be matched.

Unless you really are an avid tube enthusiast, i would suggest "keeping things simple" and the tube count down to no more than two to four output devices per channel. Otherwise, the cost and complexity will DRASTICALLY increase above that point. Sean
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Sean,
Although tubes have substantially larger operating tolerances the number of tubes for the same power is substantially smaller than the number of transistors that will add-up in result the same or even larger operating tolerances.
In all cases the number of output devices should be optimized and that's how we can approach synergy, spead and clarity.

The only thing I don't dig is how 300b or any pre-historic-triode SE amp can play MUSIC?
To me it's the same as to build 1w radio that also can play music quite loud especially if placed soewhere in the corner of empty room...
Hey thanks for the kind words folks. I learn more here than anything else and a lot from the folks in this thread.

above by Mark >> "The only thing I don't dig is how 300b or any pre-historic-triode SE amp can play MUSIC? To me it's the same as to build 1w radio that also can play music quite loud especially if placed soewhere in the corner of empty room..."

What do you mean you "don't dig" Mark? I'm not sure I get your point.? Do you think low powered tube amps are nonsense? I don't think they are for everybody but they do a lot of things quite well.

>> said above by Sean .."On top of this, i've found that tubes (even from the same manufacturer ) have a far wider level of operating tolerances than SS devices"

I thought that fets and mosfets were far less consistent than tubes? A 30% tolerance in transistors is fantastically good isn't it?

I'm not much re SS but I'm told the specs show that one transistor will have twice the capacitance of the other - thus half the speed...ie the NPN and PNP "complements" really aren't a true complement. MOSFETs being the worst in this regard. These capacitance nonlinearities get worse when you have more than two transistors in the output stage. You have large, and dissimilar, capacitances that are all over the place, and drifting slowly with temperature. It takes a lot of current to charge them. I’m not sure that SS is an answer to poor tolerances or stray capacitance issues. They are different problems but they are still there.

Anyway I’m really NOT that well informed about the SS stuff as I don’t really mess with it much. Really just asking. your comment re tolerance surprised me. Tubes have some weaknesses I wasn't sure that was one. I'll have to check it out.

There are lots of handy tricks to bring aging a tubes back into line such as simple cathode biasing which makes a stage almost self adjusting (if the current goes up in one it increases the bias which, in turn, decreases the current.)

Anyway
Cheers
I remain,