Jazz for aficionados

Rok, while every word you spoke was gospel truth, we are comparing recorded to live. I was only feet away from both players when I heard them; no recording, and no recording equipment can duplicate organ, not even high end.

Alex, thank you for the thoughtful post. Please understand, my primary motivation is not to "teach". Like all of us on this thread I share my thoughts and likes and dislikes. If, given my particular background and perspective, anyone finds value in what I have to say, that's great. However, like all of us, I have to be honest with what I think about a topic or player and try to explain why. I too can and do learn from your posts and others'. Rok has sometimes alluded to the issue of "too much knowledge". While I don't agree that there can ever be too much knowledge, I think that there is a lot of value in understanding why certain music or artists may appeal to a listener who has not had any formal training or experience in music or performance. This is not a condescending attitude, but an honest acknowledgment of the value in a perspective that is more emotional and less "encumbered" by "facts". I hesitate to say this because, in the end, facts (objectivism) matter a great deal. The subject of objectivism vs. subjectivism has been the topic of debate many times on this thread. As with most things in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I think the main sticking point in our recent disagreement has to do with the degree to which you and I feel we are being limited by where we draw the "greatness" line. I don't agree with your stance that where I am drawing the line (as you see it) limits the listener to just "a handful" of artists; quite the contrary. First of all, I completely agree with you that there are many jazz players that deserved more recognition. I am simply saying that, USUALLY BUT NOT ALWAYS, the less recognition a player received the farther from "top tier" status they usually were; based on ability. I must also say that, since your first post on the subject, your posted examples of players have gotten progressively better, imo; players like Phineas Newborn and Clark Terry are hardly "unknowns" and are fantastic players. So, just how much are we limiting ourselves by "ignoring" some of these least pkayers. Let's stick, for a moment, to trumpet players since Dave Burns relates to all this and was one of your first examples. Let me also say that, for me, the line is drawn, first and foremost, at a player's ability to project an individualistic sound or style; iow, does he have something to say that is unique or his own. For example, I can hear just a few measures of Louis Armstrong, Miles, Freddie, Lee Morgan (!!!), Dizzy, Clark Terry, Clifford, Woody Shaw, Dave Douglas, Kenny Dorham and be able to identify the player. To a lesser degree (takes longer listening and harder to identify): Nat Adderley, Tom Harrell, Randy Brecker, Red Rodney, Fats Navarro, Thad Jones, Donald Byrd. To an even lesser degree: Ira Sullivan, Tim Hagans, and the list goes on and on. When one considers how much many of these players have recorded, no, I don't feel it limits at all; I consider all of these players to be at the top of the heap and to have individualistic styles to one degree or another. In the case of Wynton (Rok, you can ignore this) I can always identify him by the sheer virtuosity and technical perfection in his playing. This all leads to Dave Burns since you asked:

I don't hear an individualistic sound. I don't hear from him anything that hasn't been said by many other bop/hard bop players. Moreover, technically I hear a sense that, technically, he is not totally secure. Listen to the end of phrases and he "flubs" or slurs the notes. He can get around the instrument well, but there is the sense that he might lose technical control of the instrument sometimes and miss a note. Miles also conveyed this sense sometimes, but this was an artistic choice. It was part of his musical "attitude"; a kind of "fuck you" attitude and arrogance that went along with his habit of turning his back to the audience. Still, a genius who could play with technical perfection (or close to it) when he felt like it.

Anyway, thanks for the dialogue and interesting topic. I think that if we have more agreement than disagreement.

*****Spoken like a true audiophile!!!!!*****

Acman3, there is no need to hurl insults.

Cheers

*****I was only feet away from both players when I heard them; no recording, and no recording equipment can duplicate organ, not even high end.*****

I agree. When I lived in Endicott, NY, my favorite Bar, in nearby Binghamton, had a house band based around the organist. Wow!! Live definitely makes a difference.

Cheers

*****Wynton Marsalis*****

Love the guy for what he does for the music. I shudder to think where we would be if the 'wrong' guy had the gig at Lincoln Center. He is a great ambassodor for Jazz.

His playing? I don't think Be-bop/hard bop is his natural element. He is the obvious and rightful heir to Louis. He is at home with the founders in New Orleans. It shows in his playing and the way he lights up when talking about them. When he plays that style Jazz, his horn sings like no other!!

He ain't the angry inner city player.

Cheers