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Questioning the need for a DAC

Friends,
I have a modified Oppo 103 that was a huge step up from my $2K Consonance tube CD player.  I also have a Jolida FX Tube DAC, maybe the II version, which I have had for many years.  I ran the Oppo directly into my system (I have a Don Sachs tube preamp and various amps, tube and SS, and Spatial Audio Hologram M4 Turbo S speakers) and then through the Jolida.  I honestly didn't hear a difference.  Some months later,  I demo'd a Schiit Gungnir and did the same comparison.  I really couldn't discern an audible difference with the Schiit in or out of the system.  I will admit that I sent the Schiit back for a refund after only 30 hours or so of burn-in so maybe 100 hours of burn-in might have lead to a different outcome.  A boatload of audiophiles rave about the sonic improvement with the pricey DAC's in their systems, no question about it.  With my ears, not so much.  

A "cheap and cheerful" audiophile friend of mine, who doesn't listen to much digitally-reproduced music, posed an interesting question.   If one invests in a modern quality CD player (i.e., like the Oppo 103 or 105, which make the Stereophile list of "Class A" products or many others between $1K-$5K), why is there the expectation that one needs a separate DAC to improve the sound of the DAC?   It is not trivial question.  As a matter of fact, I called Oppo while I was auditioning the Schiit DAC, nonplussed, asking why I wasn't hearing some significant improvement with the addition of an external DAC of the caliber of the Gungnir.  In response, the Oppo rep suggested, quite casually, that maybe the internal DAC in the modestly-priced Oppo 103 was quite good.  Indeed, because that is what my 63-year old ears told me.

I'd be keen to hear feedback from others who ponder the same question.   As I age, I am aware of the desire of sellers of many audio products to strike a deal with me that frankly might benefit them more financially than I  benefit sonically.  Cheers, Mark 

  
whitestix
williewonka
1,826 posts
 
Whitestix -  FYI - over the last 4 years I have found that IC's and PC's can degrade or enhance the performance of any component.

Trying to perform a comparison of two components connected with different IC's and PC's can result in an inaccurate assessment

Quality PC's in particular, can have a huge impact on the performance of a connected component but it also depends on how good the power supply of that component is.

I found that the better the power supply, the less "noticeable" impact the PC had, but I hasten to add that the improvements of a good PC on a component with a good power supply, the improvements became more subtle and refined (i.e. I had to listen more intently initially)

An example of this ...

- my Bifrost DAC (with an OK power supply), when connected with an excellent PC and IC provided a most noticeable improvement in dynamics, imaging, bass depth etc..

- whereas attaching the same cables to my Simaudio Moon phono stage, (that has a better quality power supply) provided more subtle improvements in the extremely fine details and clarity

- my amp. having the biggest power supply, seemed to improve the least, but the improvements were there in the acoustics of the venue, hence a more realistic overall presentation 

When I experienced just how much difference cables made, it became apparent that my components were capable of performing so much better than I had realized and to get them all performing at their best, I decided all my cables had perform to the same level.

Good luck with your comparisons
sbank's avatar
sbank
2,038 posts
 
@williewonka You're welcome anytime you come down Philadelphia way. Off topic, I love Toronto and used to spend many weekends there when I live just "across the lake" in Rochester. One of my fav record store towns back in the day. Hope vinyl still thrives there. Cheers,
Spencer
williewonka
1,826 posts
 
Spencer, if you know where to look there is plenty of vinyl, especially around the Queen/University-Spadina area.

One of the nicest stores for previously enjoyed albums is called Around Again (nice play on words). Most of their stuff is top notch and you can trade your old albums in for a store credit. They also have a couple of TT’s with headphones so you can listen before you buy - do you remember those days? We had a store in the UK with actual listening booths - when I was a kid :-)

I picked up a 1958 Chris Barber album in great condition a few years back from Around Again for around $8 CDN

You should bring your US$ up some time for a visit :-)

Toronto is also a great area for audiophilia, with lots of high-end stores that also carry a selection of high quality vinyl as well.

It’s a really good place to live if you are into audio, but alas, my wife retires soon, so we are moving 100 miles further north to the ski areas, which means I gotta get out and hi-fi shop before we move :-)

Cheers

whitestix OP
386 posts
 
Thanks to all who provided their views on this issue.  I used Morrow IC's all the way around in my system and with or without the CIA DAC and external power supply in the loop, the sound from my Oppo was indistinguisable.  Same same, no difference that my ears could perceive. I have employed a dozen different power cords in various components in my system and was never able to perceive a difference with any of them.  Zero, nada.  However, my tube guru Don Sachs, who is a denier about a lot of tweaks, claims he can perceive power cord differences and his ears I trust so I don't discount that younger, better trained, ears than mine do find improvements with various power cords.  I have a Powervar 12 amp power conditioner to which all my gear, except for the amp, uses as a power source, the same power conditioner that Don uses in his system.  

Cheers,
Mark
williewonka
1,826 posts
 
Whitesix, discerning a difference between two components is something I also found to be very difficult in the beginning..

It wasn't until I got into reviewing some high priced cables/RCA's for the manufacturer and devoting a lot of time to what I refer to as "the art of listening", that I was able to notice small, but discernible improvements.

I started with a collection of about 20 tracks that I thought might indicate improvements in an audition. Over time that list changed, as I heard other tracks in which I heard sounds that were never before noticed, or were more pronounced. The number of my audition tracks is now over 50  and some of the original tracks are no longer used for evaluations.

I've listened to those tracks over and over and I am now very familiar with their various subtleties.

The other thing about auditioning - you have to allow time for the cables to settle and the components to burn in (if they are new).
- I've auditioned cables that took 3 days just to settle and over 300 hours to burn in - painful!

It's not what i would call f fun and I would recommend that if you are happy with the sound/components you have, then don't bother chasing nirvana unless you have endless cash :-(

I know people in this hobby tend to look for the next best sounding components, but I do not, I just like to get the best performance out of the components I have.

All of my cables are DIY and they provide amazing fidelity, bettering some very high priced commercial products out there.

For now - I am extremely happy with my system and no longer chase after better components or cables.

I'm just enjoying the music - finally :-)


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