Forgot, back on point: I enjoyed the Raven review too. Makes me want to get one. Not only because of my/our obsession (down obsession, down!), but because Valin, I think, in an attempt to describe what he experienced, was willing to broach the use of language that he surely knew would get him some grief - and which told me how much he really liked it. The term, "colored," is a taboo word in the hi-end, but the descriptors,"warmer, richer," "beautiful" and "luxurious," are not necessarily bad things if they lead to falling deeper into the listening experience - that is the measure. Because, you know, its not just the absolute sound, its the absolute experience.
Raven v Walker. Colored v Accurate?
This post has been generated following Jonathan Valin’s recent review of the Raven AC-3/Phantom combination in TAS. What intrigues me is not that JV has been lucky enough to review and buy or have on permanent loan yet another world’s best product. A truly astounding strike rate for any reviewer it must be said. Rather, it is what JV readily describes as the colored sound of the Raven/Phantom combination and the apparent appeal of this sound compared with what JV described as the more accurate sound of the Walker that piques my curiosity. This is not, I hasten to add about the relative merits of either table or their arms. The intention is not to have a slug-fest between Walker and Raven owners.
What really interests me is how it is that a product that in the reviewer’s opinion more accurately conveys what is on the source material is perceived as somehow less emotionally satisfying than one which presumably exaggerates, enhances or even obscures some aspect of the recorded information, if one can accept that this is what colored sound or the product’s character is. It appears counter intuitive and the deliberation of the phenomenon is making me question my own goals in audio reproduction. These have been pretty much on the side of more accurate is better and more emotionally compelling with due consideration to financial constraints in my choice of equipment in achieving this goal.
On face value and if you can accept the hyperbole it appears that the colored is better route is a little like going to a concert and putting on a device that allows you to alter the sound you hear. You twiddle a couple of knobs, sit back with a smile on your face and say “Ah! That’s better, that’s what I want it to sound like” You like it but it’s not necessarily what the musicians intended you to hear.
It seems logical that the closer one can get to accurately reproducing every piece of information recorded onto the medium then the closer you should be able to get to the actual performance, together with all the acoustic cues existing at that performance. I am making an assumption here that the recording medium is actually capable of capturing these things in the first instance.
We have our 12 inch pieces of vinyl on the platters of two systems under evaluation. We are not in the recording booth. The musicians are not on hand to play the piece over and over so that we can compare the live sound to the master tape and even if we did every performance is unique so we can never compare a second or third live performance with the one we just recorded. How then can the accuracy of a turntable/arm/cartridge combination and its ability to convey the emotion of the recorded event truly be evaluated? Ideally we should at least have the master tapes at hand to play on the same system in which we are evaluating the TT’s. The comparison will of necessity still be subjective but the determination would seem to be more believable than if the master tape were not part of the evaluation. If the master tape gave the listener no emotional connection with the musicians then I would contend that there would be something fundamentally flawed in another part of the playback system.
So in evaluating the two combinations would the more accurate combination be the more emotionally appealing? I cannot see how it would be otherwise unless we just don’t like what has been recorded or the way it has been recorded, the musicians have not made an emotional connection with us and the slightly flawed copy is preferred to the original. Is this why God made tone controls?
I have used the words seems, appears and presume quite deliberately, not to have a bet each way but because I am cognizant of the fact that we are, in audio reproduction dealing with the creation of an illusion and creating that illusion with people who have varying levels of perception, different experiences and tastes, different playback media and different physical replay environments so the task at hand for audio designers, humble reviewers and even we poor consumers could not be more complex.
What really interests me is how it is that a product that in the reviewer’s opinion more accurately conveys what is on the source material is perceived as somehow less emotionally satisfying than one which presumably exaggerates, enhances or even obscures some aspect of the recorded information, if one can accept that this is what colored sound or the product’s character is. It appears counter intuitive and the deliberation of the phenomenon is making me question my own goals in audio reproduction. These have been pretty much on the side of more accurate is better and more emotionally compelling with due consideration to financial constraints in my choice of equipment in achieving this goal.
On face value and if you can accept the hyperbole it appears that the colored is better route is a little like going to a concert and putting on a device that allows you to alter the sound you hear. You twiddle a couple of knobs, sit back with a smile on your face and say “Ah! That’s better, that’s what I want it to sound like” You like it but it’s not necessarily what the musicians intended you to hear.
It seems logical that the closer one can get to accurately reproducing every piece of information recorded onto the medium then the closer you should be able to get to the actual performance, together with all the acoustic cues existing at that performance. I am making an assumption here that the recording medium is actually capable of capturing these things in the first instance.
We have our 12 inch pieces of vinyl on the platters of two systems under evaluation. We are not in the recording booth. The musicians are not on hand to play the piece over and over so that we can compare the live sound to the master tape and even if we did every performance is unique so we can never compare a second or third live performance with the one we just recorded. How then can the accuracy of a turntable/arm/cartridge combination and its ability to convey the emotion of the recorded event truly be evaluated? Ideally we should at least have the master tapes at hand to play on the same system in which we are evaluating the TT’s. The comparison will of necessity still be subjective but the determination would seem to be more believable than if the master tape were not part of the evaluation. If the master tape gave the listener no emotional connection with the musicians then I would contend that there would be something fundamentally flawed in another part of the playback system.
So in evaluating the two combinations would the more accurate combination be the more emotionally appealing? I cannot see how it would be otherwise unless we just don’t like what has been recorded or the way it has been recorded, the musicians have not made an emotional connection with us and the slightly flawed copy is preferred to the original. Is this why God made tone controls?
I have used the words seems, appears and presume quite deliberately, not to have a bet each way but because I am cognizant of the fact that we are, in audio reproduction dealing with the creation of an illusion and creating that illusion with people who have varying levels of perception, different experiences and tastes, different playback media and different physical replay environments so the task at hand for audio designers, humble reviewers and even we poor consumers could not be more complex.
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- 152 posts total
Just to muddy the waters further, here is a preview of what Jonathon Valin thinks may be better than either the Walker or Raven, with the Grandezza arm also being the best? http://forums.avguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=3561 |
The Grandezza is a great arm with the right cartridge. A low compliance cartridge will thrive with the arm. But if the cartridge is medium compliance it will be a negative effect. The Phantom is a fairly low effective mass which mates well w. a Lyra Titan I etc. W. the Grandeza, Koetsu's, Some ZYX & other cartridges will benefit. The PC-1 is fairly low as well. About a 10cu. On to the table as a comparison. I honestly believe very few people know what their turntables are capable of until they are perfectly isolated. The Magnetic bearing is one way of achieving this if well implemented. As per my understanding the Caliburn's "greatness" is a result of its magnetic levitation in the stand. I truly wonder how perfectly isolated turntables on a Halcyonics Platform would compare. For me this is the challenge in isolating a turntables performance from each other if all else is the same. |
To Asa. Mark you had me searching for Wittgenstein's Tractatus! Well I did post a philosophical enquiry. As you may have noticed this thread has begun an evolution in my evaluative processes and I now see myself heading towards that transcendent middle ground(who wouldn't want to be transcendent anyway as it sounds so cool) but with a leaning towards the scientific materialist school to maintain my comfort zone. Not quite ready for SET's just yet. I tend to find re assurance when I know that the piece of equipment I am listening to has achieved its end via scientific rigor rather than pot luck or a warm fuzzy feeling on the part of the designer. I don't find good measurements and good sound necessarily mutually exclusive as some on the outer edges of the Romantic Idealist school seem to think. Back in the here and now I am very interested listen to Halco's Raven AC-3, particularly as his amps are very much in the scientific, measurements are all camp. Should be an interesting mix. |
- 152 posts total