Here’s how I handle the situation. Before audition, I discuss price considering online price and additional cost operating a BM. If we can’t agree, I move on and don’t waste stores time. Usually we agree on a price and both parties win.
I have never auditioned at a store then bought online but where I live unless you want an Anthem, Integra or similar items mainly used in Home Theaters there is nothing to really audition anymore though some will special order certain items.
Dealers can be helpful. After I bought a pair of Magnepan 20.7 locally (and had bought 3.6 from the same dealer 8 years earlier)He was blunt and told me 'You don't need a new amp'.(He had also sold me my amp 8 years ago) And later he offered to let me borrow a Marantz SA-10 for a week.No hassle. I used it ...liked it ... and used the money i probably would have spent on a new amp, on the Marantz SA-10. So good Karma I guess.
Just don’t plan to request warranty work from that dealer whom you screwed over by auditioning gear with them and then ended up buying the same gear elsewhere or online.
What comes around goes around. Karma screws those who screws others.
I would never go to a dealer that I hadn’t done any business with to listen to something with the sole purpose of buying it online. At a minimum I would give them a chance to make a deal.
If if it was more of a big box store where I wasn’t requiring any special effort by a salesman then I wouldn’t feel as strongly about it.
I dont think it is necessary to overpay by a large margin just to support a local store but sometimes giving them something for their time can easily equate to paying a little more for the product.
One of my local shops led me to my Yaqin tube amplifier and not only sold it for me at the online price they set it up for me. I don’t think they made anything on the deal beyond good will which they are very good at. I have purchased a few things from them since and recommend them a lot. I would pay more from them.
Guess inna maybe you should simply ask yourself how you'd feel if you were the dealer and people did it to you. Or, just consider in general , do you like getting jerked around
I was in a local high end store today to purchase some records and it was a thoroughly pleasant experience. They had some nice speaker playing so I sat to listen. A salesman asked if he could help me at all. I explained I wasn't currently in the market even though I really like the brand of speaker playing. Told him I don't wish to bother him especially if he has another customer who is in buying mode. But since the speaker was already playing thought I'd listen for a moment. He was completely pleasant, said they completely encourage sitting, relaxing and listening to anything, and no problem about not being in buying mode. He'd play any system I'd like.
Good move. That's the way to treat customers if you can do it. I know that a number of times over the years I've been in a similar "I'm in the market at this time" mode (and made sure the proprietor knew it), but when the proprietor played me a system or two I was like "Hey, that was pretty damned nice." It put the bug in me which later turned into my purchasing the item later on from his store.
If I get the itch for yet another speaker, e.g. for a second system, now I have what I heard at the store in the back of my mind.
+1 dill. Though I can understand madavid0's sentiment. When I recall the pretentious attitudes that more than a few dealers in Manhattan gave me, I too, wished them an eternal residence in a fiery pit. Thankfully, not all of them deserve such a fate.
"
Brick and mortar dealers can go straight to Hell."
After reading a good sampling of your posts, it appears to me that your attitude might be the sole reason your journey in high-end audio is less that satisfying for you.
Small selection, poor attitudes, RUSHING CUSTOMERS, goofball markups, and generally being useless.
Can someone explain why I must pay huge amounts to visit some dealership's small mostly useless showroom during working hours so I can have the exclusive privilege of having them ship a box to me I could just as well get from the manufacturer?
If you have a little showroom with not quite what I want and you cling to me playing 30 second snippets and chat at me, the only thing you're going to sell is the idea of me leaving.
There's like 100 shows a year, I don't really NEED to go to a dealership. So just be like those "by appointment only" dealers that are just local distributors there to take a chunk of my bank account for the exclusive privilege of buying audio gear.
I always try to support good local dealers when you can find them. In the long run they can save you money by offering good advice and sometimes can link you with great deals on trade ins from other customers. But many dealers aren’t great and have bad attitudes. For those I don’t care.
I grappled with the idea of buying from a dealer who wasn't local, after visiting my local dealer to make a purchase, and the salesman seemed he didn't know much about the equipment he sold, was pretty much an "order taker" and wasn't that interested in finding answers to my questions. About 40 years ago I was a commissioned audio salesman and it used to really bother me when I'd spend time working with a customer who would then go to a discount store and buy cheaper stuff. Every now and then, when they'd have problems, some of them would actually have the audacity to ask me to help them with problems they had with the equipment they bought from that discount store. But in the case of making a purchase from my local dealer, the owner had an investment that I benefited from, and though my salesman wasn't the best, I didn't think it was right to buy the items somewhere else, when the local dealer "added value" by having the units available on display at their showroom.
@gdnrbob. Correct. I think my next step is to visit a dealer with a long standing customer/mutual friend and have that be an ice breaker. I forgot, but I was in Des Moine and visited a small dealer. They had their guard up at first, but once I was able "geek out" with the nicer employee over a mutual interest, It made for a nice, but quick listening session. Wasn’t a fan of the speaker placement, so not much of an audition. Still, the vibe was thick! when I walked in.
As someone who has seen many people develop into what I consider to be unethical human beings, I have come to this conclusion- Conscience, once discarded, is not missed.
I don’t know if I coined this phrase, but I haven’t heard it before. Whether or not I was the first to say it doesn’t really matter. It’s still true.
That "huge tax refund" will be in April 2019 when the new tax laws are in effect. The refund you get in April 2018 will be based on the current tax laws.
Thanks for that. I have customers who really really appreciate what I do...I should say what I did. Turned 74 last May...I have served our community well ( my opinion of course ) but I am done.
If you want to know what I was about check out the show reports on my website soundsrealaudio.com. Those show reports gave me a lot of satisfaction. I remember one reviewer coming in, played three songs from different artists. Well the next year I say him in the hall and he said " I can't get those three songs out of my head ". I thought that was the very best compliment.
You have great holidays yourself, and plan on how you are going to spend you " huge tax refund " you get in April. Lol
some 30 years ago, when i lived in northern california there was a guitar store where every freakin kid in town would hang out all day and play gear which few of them could afford. i once asked the owner why he didn't kick out the obvious gawkers, and he told me that in due course these kids would grow into affluent consumers and would likely buy from him. i believe the store is still in business, so apparently his approach was sound.
Interesting how some people try to justify actions that aren't justifiable - if you use a dealer to audition, you don't get to then decide unilaterally that the dealer is making "too much" money and thus you are justified in theft of his time.
A good dealer is invaluable and a bad one doesn't get a follow up visit. Good dealers are useful to help you understand what you're looking for and what to consider. I'll always take on a good dealer's comments but will do my own research (in the end, I don't always agree with them). When I'm confident that something is worth auditioning, that's when it's time to use the dealer's time for an audition.
Where I am, there aren't many dealers and they are pushy (you *must* buy immediately) and they don't take trade ins. So I don't buy locally even if they have an item I'm interested in and instead use vacations to visit dealers that are good dealers and with whom I can build a relationship (and who accept trade ins). I'm also not always buying, so if I'm dropping by to say hello and just generally check things out, I'm clear up front that I'm not there to buy anything to make sure I don't waste their time if they have a buyer coming in for a serious audition. I'm probably particularly sensitive to this given that I'm in a service industry myself.
I remember going to Audio Classics when I was like 17. At the time I was into cd’s mostly and had started buying records because they were cheaper than CD’s. I wasn't ready to purchase, but I had a budding interest in improving my Denon and Design Acoustics Technics direct drive system. They were very unfriendly and it left enough of a mark that I have never gone into a brick and mortar store since. I buy used gear happily. I am even tentative to this day to go back. 20+ years later. It was pretty horrible. I know it is a respected shop, and I am missing out, but it’s just the way things unfolded.
Brick&mortar shops have become 'hot-house flora' that require tending to flourish and thrive, so the answer is obvious, no? ;)
If you treat them seriously, they ought to respond. If they don't or they haven't, they're getting 'fertilized' in some unobvious fashion and feel free to appreciate the blossoms....
(It also helps to be in or near a major population center....one of the top 10 or so really ups ones' odds....For moi', a daytrip minimum. overnight 'speed tour' more likely...)
Conrad Johnson Classic preamp...lengthy audition, generous trade in, great price
NAD M51 DAC, lengthy audition, best price of anyone , the unit locked up three weeks later and they had a new one two days later.
Klipsch Heresy III , lengthy audition , best price , no shipping, no tax....had them in less than a week.
These are just a few examples but all were purchased locally with top notch service and support.....
Boston and surrounding suburbs had many, many hi fi dealers . I have been into this for 35 + years and remember you couldn't even turn the corner without hitting one. Today there are only a handful.
AV Therapy is one of the good ones, as was Spearit but sadly they are gone , there are a few not so good ones too.
I think if this thread has shown us anything really good dealers are rare and should be prized. If you find one patronize that dealer and treat him fairly and you will be repaid in good advice and likely less money wasted.
And interestingly, I can’t stand dealers and find them to be the dial telephones of the new century. But I would never use one for showrooming.
Agree with the ethical posture of not taking what you don't pay for.
I have thoroughly auditioned almost everything in my system. Often I have bought used and auditioned with great satisfaction other times bought used using a review w/o audition and wasted hundreds. Reviews are only a starting point. A set of speakers can sound COMPLETELY different given different amplifiers- never mind DACS or preamps! If you skip dealer auditions you may never know how good your system might have sounded. You can also save time and money by avoiding lateral moves. If you buy online to save $$ but SKIP dealer auditions, then I think you are fair. The risk is yours. However, what will the future look like? Disagree that dealers are making money. I remember when there were many more dealers and it seemed more satisfying then. Remember it's a HOBBY. Incredible to read that dealers are making trillions and trillions with extra billions on the side- How is it that so many dealers are closing?? WE are forcing dealers to cater to wealthier customers because typical buyers are not showing up. Audiophiles, audio enthusiasts, dealers, and manufacturers are generally very nice people. I will be very sad when there are NO dealers in my area.
Soundsrealaudio, thanks so much for sharing that. And have a happy holiday and a prosperous new year. I am sure that you are one of great dealers out there.
No dealer in Twin Cities sells PSB. Nor would I sell a brand sold heavily on the internet . If they did, I might right this second be listening to a pair of PSB T-3’s as from the reviews they seem like the speaker I’ve always wanted, even though I know my Gallo’s do all that needs to be done .
So, if I go into a dealer more than once I always buy something, if only a used tuner or a 400$ cartridge as I know they are profitable . Only right to do for someone that has saved me $7,000 on a speaker I’ve never heard .
I would not disagree with your regarding dealers. I spent about three years in my youth working for one in Denver. Lots of Sansei receivers.
After two kids had grown up I got back into music. Built a couple of Ralph's M-60's and had a pair of MM deCapo's. Sounded crazy good for not a lot of money. Never auditioned either of them. I couldn't have found anything like these at a dealer.
That pushed me to become a dealer. I felt there had to be something better, much better. I did become a dealer, but to find those gems you speak of I had to kiss a lot of frogs. So many frogs.
I totally get your attitude towards dealers, in a perverse way they caused me to become one.
@viridian As a native New Yorker, I share your sentiment. During the '80's I visited just about all the stores in the area, and with the exception of one or two, they all exhibited the traits you described:
Many are more concerned with their needs and likes than that of the customer
But, thankfully, we have Audiogon. And, I have to say that finding John Rutan at Audioconnection was one of the best things that has happened to me. He really knows his stuff, but doesn't preach, and he offers free advice. What more can you want from a dealer? B
I should say that Audio Visual Therapy in Nashua NH is excellent to deal with and while they didnt have the speakers in the finish i wanted in stock, it was more important that I got to listen to them . They spent time with different amps, putting a sub in the system , etc. Their service is top notch and guess what? It didn’t cost any more than if I ordered them on line, and that’s definitely not something I would do as they have treated me fair everytime I’ve been there.
This parallels my experience rather well with my local dealer, Duane Randleman.
I think that you are mis-quoting me. I said “can’t stand” not “hate”. Do you understand the difference? Likewise Cleeds deduces that I am angry at dealers and this is not true either.
Having lived in New York City and Los Angeles for protracted periods of time, as well as smaller cities I have found, too often, that dealers fail at the mission I have outlined in the post above.
Many are more concerned with their needs and likes than that of the customer, which is reflected in their recommended gear as well as the music that they choose to play. And many that I have met got into the business for a love of music with minimal business background and precious little customer service experience. This becomes very problematic, very quickly and, frankly, I would rather buy and resell on the secondary market than have to suffer one more dealer.
Kudos to Terri Inman at Stereotypes in Portland OR, who seems to be a model of how to do it right. But I really can’t bother to pan through all of that sand for a few nuggets of gold. YMMV.
The dealer doesn’t have to be your friend. But he, or she, has to add value, by keeping you from wasting money on gear that is not consistent with your system goals and listening bias. And by letting you verify that, preferably in the context of your own system, at home.
Those services are either worth some monetary amount to you, or they are not. And if they are not, do not steal your dealers time and resources. Just order what you think you need on line. Or purchase from the secondary market.
I should say that Audio Visual Therapy in Nashua NH is excellent to deal with and while they didnt have the speakers in the finish i wanted in stock, it was more important that I got to listen to them . They spent time with different amps, putting a sub in the system , etc. Their service is top notch and guess what? It didn't cost any more than if I ordered them on line, and that's definitely not something I would do as they have treated me fair everytime I've been there.
"
When you audition $20,000 in gear, if it's new, $8,000 or so goes right into the dealer's pocket."
Ok, then you have shipping cost, could be $500.00+, so now we have $7,500. Does the dealer offer home delivery & setup, I did, so we have that cost. Then there is rent, utilities, advertising, insurance, security, store furnishings, employees wages, taxes, computer system, etc.,before he realizes any profit. And, many times the profit goes back into inventory. If one wants to get rich, one is already or chooses another path other than a high-end B&M audio store.
While it might initially go "into the dealers pocket", it doesn't stay there for long.
I never do it..... our customers do it all the time and I think it sucks. If you are a dealer , and spend time with me without steering me I will buy from you if you can be somewhat competitive. I made a recent purchase where I did better at a mom and pop than an internet dealer . That is partly due to no tax or shipping but still.... They always treat me right so they are the first to come to mind.
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