Thanks! for sharing- michaeljbrown
Bryston power amps are a sonic match w/ Thiel speakers.
Over your course, which cabling (most important), did you use?
Happy Listening! |
I used Transparent cables; however, after a talk with Roger Sanders, I ordered a pair of Sanders speaker cables and I now use them throughout and have never thought of using anything else.
I have never used Bryston but I am sure they are a good match, as Gary at Thiel spoke highly of Bryston, and he now works for them.
Bryston is not as high current as Krell, Classe or Pass, but I have heard them with Thiel and was very impressed. In fact, I almost bought a Bryston integrated to use with my 2.4's. I wish I had, as I wasted some time and money with the baby Boulder before getting the Krell.
Thanks for the thread jafant! |
My pleasure- Guys.
I would like a demo on that Bryston integrated amp- michaeljbrown.
Can you tell me more about your audition? I concur that Transparent cabling is outstanding. I have never read about Sanders, though?
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oblgny-
how are you liking the B.A.T. and Primare combo?
About 10 years ago, I demo'ed the then new Primare I22 integrated amp w/ matching cd player on Vienna Acoustics speakers. Not bad at all.
Fast forward to 2016, I believe the model #'s are up to I32 and CD32
combo. The cd player has received much positive Audio press.
The Primare blu-ray spinner is supposed to be excellent as well.
Sanyo makes the laser assembly/drive transport. |
Jafant...
I'm using a Primare R32 phono preamp as well; so far the mating of the B. A. T. with the Primare is a very solid match - particularly with vinyl. The separation is practically magical.
The Primare is still barely broken in as I've been busy with work, listening maybe 6 hours a week. I usually allow the pre about 15 minutes before I listen - seems to show best when the tubes emit a little warmth.
I'm looking at a BAT VK250 listed here now...trying to figure out how the heck I can get it!
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Very nice! I am still considering a B.A.T. integrated amp on my Thiel speakers. There are so many excellent amps in the marketplace, I do not want to make a $ mistake? |
I was able to listen to the Bryston integrated (model escapes me) at a dealer showroom in Santa Fe. It was paired with Thiel 2.7's and sounded wonderful.
I wish I had listened to my ears!
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Thank You- michaeljbrown
that really says a lot, as the 2.7, requires more current to drive than my 2.4s. Should have been model B-135.
Happy Listening! |
Guys-
have any of you owned NAIM gear with your Thiel loudspeakers?
Thoughts? Impressions?
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Anyone? Hope you guys are having a fun Thiel week. |
As we ramp-up for another Thiel week- Happy Listening! |
Jayfant;
when are are you going to post your system pictures with the 2.4se
they are beautiful speakers!
What are you running them with
Jeff
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Thank You- frozentundra
at the present time, I only have the speakers, as I am in the process of building my system. I have an idea of where I want to go with it.
There are a few more pieces of gear that I want to demo prior to any
purchase. Yes, they are beautiful! |
Heresy or...?
i just this past Saturday sold a very nice pair of Magnepan .7's that I purchased only recently because...well, I like Maggies, too. (I still have my CS3.5's.)
To round out the Mags low end output I subsequently purchased a Rhythmik L12 sub - which has gotten some very positive reviews.
I also have this for sale here but...doesn't appear to have gained an audience yet.
As you know the Thiel CS 3.5's incorporate an equalizer to extend the frequency response 20hz-20khz which I've found to be wonderful. Cutting the response to 40hz on the eq suffers separation and overall sonics.
My question is...would removing the Thiel eq and incorporating the sub instead offer any benefits and, where would I position the crossover point?
I don't believe in modding anything but since I might not sell the sub too quickly...
Thanks!
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It would be interesting to hear how a Thiel SmartSub fits into your query.
I am a big proponent of REL subwoofer. Happy Listening!
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Oblgny, I'd suggest trying the 40 Hz setting on Thiel's eq and using the sub below that point. This might increase the dynamic range, and "ease". Though the dynamic range of the bass on the 3.5's isn't it's strongest point, overall the Thiel 3.5's stereo bass w/ eq provides better bass than many subs. So much of this depends on your amp and especially your room. |
Unsound...
That's what I was thinking more or less as well. I doubt I'll do it because I think the 3.5's bass is damn good as it is. Just figuring if I have the sub.... Boredom!
Jafant...
I like Rel too. Had a couple in the past. |
Keep me posted -oblgny
Happy Listening! |
I have noticed that leaving the equalizer out completely suffers everything on the speaker. Gonna s'periment!
First I'll try with the eq set at 40, then remove it from the chain. Vedddddy interesting... |
oblgny-
you have an interesting speaker, interesting design. I wonder how/why Mr Thiel would build and sell a speaker that required some kind of EQ ?
Was he competing w/ Infinity? Mark Levinson Cello? |
^If I may; it's not a typical eq. It's really a bass only booster. By compensating for the natural bass roll off of the 10' woofers in a relatively modest sized sealed box cabinet Jim Thiel (and others including B&W, KEF ,etc.) was able to make a truly full range speaker with a high WAF. The disadvantage of this approach is a bit more cabling in the loop, and more demands on the woofers and amplifier (more on this later), and of course the rightly or wrongly audiophile thought of anathema of putting more electronics in the path. The advantage is of course true full range bass (!) in a much less expensive to make (well) and easier to sell smaller cabinet. Some have suggested less energy storage, and tighter response from the smaller woofers than would otherwise be necessary as a plus. As for the extra amplifier demands, yes it's true, but in the case of the Theil 3.5's it's not quite as challenging as it might first appear. The 3.5's are spec'd as 4 Ohm nominal, 4 Ohm minimum, and they do have a very smooth steady impedance, but at 70 Hz, the eq gradually starts to put more and more demands on the amplifier to compensate for that typical sealed box roll off, but just as that happens the impedance plot starts to increase and ergo so does the sensitivity. See, quite brilliant. Jim put one small switch on the eq to access bass response to either 40 Hz or 20 Hz to adapt to different sized rooms or musical demands. By musical demands I mean bass volume. Some music such a much popular music doesn't have much below 40 Hz but is typically played very loud in that region, where as other music such as much classical music might go deeper but not necessarily as loud there. The 3.5's can play deep bass quite loudly in typical rooms, but truth be told, one can only bend the laws of physics so far; very loud, very deep bass still needs a much bigger and much more expensive speaker system. As Jim Thiel once told me, unfortunately the eq raised a red flag to many audiophiles with preconceived prejudices. One might imagine that with today's digital room correction eq's this strategy might return, as one could not only dial in accurate bass to anechoic standards, but also to customers individual rooms in the very frequency range most likely to be problematic.
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^oops, that's a 10" woofer not a 10' woofer. :-) |
Sounds like a cool concept- I guess this is one of many reasons why the CS 2.4/ 2.4 SE models incorporated a passive radiator to accentuate the 8" driver. I have not heard any of these older models by Thiel- only the most current ones. |
^Interesting how Jim Thiel's own subs were all sealed boxes. |
Unsound...
Thanks for your thoroughly enlightening information! By far and away the most informative I've received or have been able to read about them.
I should make it clear that I had/have absolutely no qualms regarding the bass output of these speakers in the first place. In fact I think they are unbeatable in more respects than any other speaker I have owned, period. At their used prices they are an utter steal. My first pair of them cost $800 and I drove 250 miles to pick them up from a fellow member. I hooked 'em up and experienced one of my very few "wow" moments. I forget what amp/pre setup I had at the time but I became a zealot at that moment.
That pair went to my nephew who still has them. I had to repair one of the mids before handing them.
My current pair cost me $350 from a fellow member and I drove 95 miles to get them. Absolutely the best money I've spent on anything. The Audiogon BB shows an average of around $900, which is higher than what they're actually going for. Unfortunately most of them costing that and below are in poor shape. I'm currently looking for another pair to keep for parts.
Anyway, my inquiry regarding the implementation of the sub was not proposed as a means of improving anything, nor adding anything I feel is lacking. These are excellent speakers, period. I have this sub...just tinkering.
I always scan the site for 3.6's and above, but I also seek a geographically desirable location when I do. No eBay sellers, thank you. It's somewhat of a shame that I only found out about this brand after Mr. Thiel passed away.
These are extraordinarily difficult speakers to beat at any price.
My favorite amp to drive them? Pass Labs X150.5. Like a schmuck I sold that.
Thanks again!
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IME, most higher end subs are sealed designs- unsound. |
oblgny-
I,too, am interested in Pass Labs amps. I do not know which way I will go-separates vs integrated ? |
Jafant...
Were I constrained by space I'd definitely consider the integrated based upon my experience with the 150.5 amp - besides that, an appreciable cost efficiency as well. I see that Reno Hifi has one for $3795 right now. If you were to go separates pretty much double that.
I bought my 150.5 from Mark there, I do believe you've mentioned doing business with him as well. I paid $2400 for a demo a couple of years ago and regret selling it. Currently used ones are fetching about $1k higher! Sheesh. I'm an idiot! I think I was using an ARC pre at that time. |
oblgny-
Much Thanks! for the suggestion. Reno HiFi does has a stellar reputation for First Watt & Pass Labs gear. I have heard the Pass Labs separates, I want to demo the various integrated amps for a comparison.
On the flipside of this particular coin, I am interested in the B.A.T integrated as well. I do not have a Pass Labs nor B.A.T. dealer/retailer here in the deep South. Wish I did... |
Why did you sell your Pass Labs? |
Because I'm an idiot!!!
I think I did to fund a McIntosh MC275. Still kicking myself for that. |
I think Jim Thiel appreciated the work of Villchur and Kloss decades ago and felt the acoustic suspension (sealed box) design was the most accurate in reproduction of low frequencies. The passive radiator was a sort of compromise between a port and a sealed box, utilizing the back wave of the woofer to redirect that energy forward of the baffle. |
Well it certainly works! stevecham.
The radiator really adds to the overall sonic presentation of the sound.
I like it. |
oblgny-
do not feel bad- this is part of the fun of our hobby.
You have had a few, different power amps? It would be interesting to pair the Pass Labs w/ a B.A.T. pre-amp. |
Yeah...
In the past two/three years I've had...
The newest McIntosh stereo receiver MA6700
Which I liked kind of...took that back and bought the MC275 tube amp because, well, it looked so cool. Had a minor issue with it which McIntosh customer service absolutely proved useless so I sold that off...
My local shop had a CJ MF200 which I bought because it was...there. I'm having it looked over right now.
A Peachtree 220SE integrated.
A Primare i32 integrated which I liked but not enough, so I returned it and purchased my current amp, their A34.2 which is really good. My local shop is also Primare's national distributor.
A pair of Musical Fidelity M1 monoblocks - which were fun.
I think I might have missed one.
However, currently my BAT VK3i pre and the Primare are working really well and I'm not really looking. Unless of course I am able to find a Pass...A few posts back I mentioned there was a BAT amp I was watching with a buy it price of $1500 - about $500 below the BB average but the seller let it go for $1000!!! Aaaaargh!
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Laughing...
I search both A'gon & eBay everyday, so I do not miss an opportunity of a lifetime!
Thanks for mentioning the Primare I-32. I want to demo the cd player -CD32. It is good to read that something was amiss in your system.
Interesting that you like the Primare power amp? |
All-
talk about your interconnect (IC) and speaker cable (SP) journey over the years, past present and future. Happy Listening!
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Jafant...
Until I landed here about 3 years ago I had pretty much regarded interconnects/speaker cables as the last thing on my list. Sight unseen, sight unheard, heck - the components came with them, right?
I think the first "high end" amp I purchased here was a "vintage" McIntosh MC2100 105 watt per channel solid state affair which had very small screw terminals for the speaker connections. The seller related that he found a certain brand, which is now long forgotten, perfect for bringing out the amp's best performance. I was then using a pair of Klipsch CF-3's which had been driven by Radio Shack cable from a 100 foot spool, tucked along the walls and laying - gasp! - on the shag carpeting. Them speakers was 101db efficient comprised of two 10 inch woofers and a centered compression tweeter which I found to be shrill - especially with my new "audiophile" amp.
This thread could also be titled "How Audiogon Ruined My Life and Why I'm Still At It."
On subject... Based on the seller's advice I walked into my local shop and made the inquiry. They knew of the amp's Trumpian sized speaker terminals and fashioned a pair for me out of some Tara Labs cables. Bingo! Wow, this stuff is true! Mind you, I was then somewhat surprised at paying over $100 for speaker cables having never done so before.
Sheesh.
I then, and up to quite recently, had a very mixed bag of cables for everything, a few Tara's, MITs, Silnotes, Morrows...never using one brand or another in the chain altogether.
Goertz speaker cables are amongst my favorites. I still have 2 pairs, single and bi-wire just in case, 7 feet long. I have not had any speaker wires laying on the floor for a long time now!
Currently I am 100% Transparent Audio throughout, components and speaker alike. Reasonable in cost, excellent customer service, with a trade up policy I believe no other cable company offers. I'm sold and happy.
Sight unseen, sight unheard...it's sound, not sight that matter. Cables ain't sexy, there's no lights, buttons, meters, brushed aluminum fascias, toggles, aerospace graded space age polymer coatings to appreciate. I cannot offer any technical opinions regarding my preferences for cables in general, but I will offer that experimenting pays off. I suggest starting off small and continuing from there. I have and it's worth it.
Damn you, Audiogon!
By the way, my spate of recent posts to this thread was conducted whilst spinning vinyl and ripping discs into my server yesterday in an air conditioned space. 105 here yesterday afternoon. Yikes.
Great forum, I'm still learnin' stuff!
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I used Audioquest cabling for my earlier 2.2's & 2.3's. I switched to Transparent cables when my Thiel dealer (extinct now!) sold me some in the 1500 range. Later on I had a chance to compare much cheaper Sanders cables and interconnects. They sounded at least as good, and were much cheaper. Now I use Sanders for much of my needs except for when I switch to tubes and don't have balanced connections. Then it's Audioquest as I have sold my Transparent. Call Roger Sanders and order a pair if you don't like them, he'll take them back and refund your dough. I just call him and tell him how long and single ended or balanced and a week later I get a box of cables! Viola!
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On another topic, has anyone heard both CS5i's or 5's, and CS7.2's? If so, your impressions of these two big Thiels?
I'm considering the 7.2's at present. |
TY- michaeljbrown
I am a Transparent cabling fan as well. There are so many brands that I will probably never demo...depressing...
Audioquest does sound very good on Thiel speakers.
I have not heard any of the older speakers- CS5 or CS 7.2.
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Thanks! again- oblgny-
I learn from you guys as well. This is what a hobby and being a hobbiest, is all about in practice. Happy Listening!
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I've used Anti-Cables too but their stiffness creates issues of their own which are more esthetic than sonic. I think the most dramatic or at least discernible immediate differences I experienced were with the Goertz cables and the Transparent. I still have both brands on hand but it's only the Transparent that I have 100% throughout with; if I'm going to fairly compare results I'll start with the Goertz.
Sometime.
I've not heard the CS5's but a pair pops up on the site every once in a while for about $3k which is just a stupid good deal. Unfortunately they're on the other side of the country. Typically Thiel sales require local pickup because of their weight, so opportunity rarely presents itself perfectly. Sigh.
Of course they would require more power than I currently have but that ain't stopped me before from purchasing anything. I can always drag out my Pioneer SX1050 receiver as a stop gap while I search.
And I have listened to it through the Thiels before. My, how we suffer here sometimes! |
I would like to read your impressions about Goertz cabling- oblgny.
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jafant...
I believe I have the Veracity speaker cables from Goertz which I ordered directly from them over the phone. Again, I start at the beginning and go up the food chains from there.
I had bananas on both ends which were a nice tight fit on the 3.5's - some of the other brands I've used tended to fall out of the connects on the speakers which I find is more a design flaw in their placement than it is the cables fault. (Remember, the speaker connects are on the bottom of the cabinets and one has to go through that small tunnel to make the connection.)
I know later models up the line have the speaker connects on the back of the cabinet which IMHO is a far better placement.
The Veracity line is about as wide as a piece of standard masking tape and as thin as anything I've thus far used. They require a little more effort in running them so as not to bend them drastically, other than that it's as simple as any other.
As Thiel owners know in advance, Thiels reveal. EVERYTHING in the chain. The Goertz let everything through favoring the mids and highs, but the highs were never harsh. In fact, the upper end sonics is what I find most appealing about Thiel in general. Writing this, I am tempted to return the Goertz cables just to see if what I thought holds water after switching them out.
The only thing I've heard, and through my guys at Audio Den, is that some people have suffered damaging their speakers due to current overload? Or something? I'll re-ask the question to them later this week when I'm in the store - they've expanded their LP "department" so I've been going there more often. The only cables I have not switched over to Transparent are the cables on my Marantz T-15 turnable which are hardwired into the unit.
As I've said before my vinyl sounds fantastic on my current setup. I may switch out the Primare R32 phono preamp with a MF unit, one of those small phono preamps that I've had laying around forever, just to see if it's the Primare's impact. While my CD and server components sound good, the vinyl trumps them indeed. Just...better. |
Very nice. Which models of Transparent are you currently using?
Happy Listening! |
Jafant...
Music Wave on the speakers, Link on the connects. Cheap seats to start! |
I went the same path way back when- oblgny. I had the MM2 cabling not too long ago. It should still hold up well and is a bargain at used/demo prices even at Reference levels.
The real "sweet" spot in any cable/cord line will be the middle models for both IC and SP cabling. Happy Listening!. |
