Macdad
You need to get your facts straight. As someone who has been in the music space for 30 years, you look foolish.
First, in terms of songwriting, Elvis did covers. Sorry. Very little was directly written or attributed by him. Many bands have ghost writers on their payroll in secret or the labels seek out hits for individual artists.
Second, as for instruments, very few Hip Hop artists sample anymore. Paul's Boutique, by the Beatie Boys, had $300,000 in "sampling" replay rights in 1989. After that album came out, few record companies were willing to front the bill on this. Most samples used are by the initation of the rock bands themselves, who are looking to cross-over into the younger demos. Sting was intimately involved in the P.Diddy song, as well as Steely Dan with Kanye West. You, as their core demo, are no longer buying records. Hip Hop still shifts tapes and CDs in volume.
Third, many Hip Hop albums use live in studio instruments to recreate piano, guitar, bass and drum parts. The bass heavy sound is usually added at post production and mixing. I have many studio musicians who play on these recordings. They are generously paid but do not receive playing credits due to royalty structures. I can also point you to The Roots, who have a weekly legendary club gig going in NYC, who probably have the best live drummer in the music space at the moment. |
If you believe that rock is king, look at hair metal. Foreigner. Stix. Maroon 5. Creed. Rock has produced a huge amount of suckage. I can think of 10,000 crappy bands that never held up. I find all your "rock is where it at--rap is crap" and "skull rattling" to be childish and ignorant. Sales success. Check. Fan acceptance. Check. Live Touring and Merchandise Sales. Check. Sometimes I feel this site is populated by gnomes who have not updated their record collections since 1976. The good old days are OLD. Stay fresh and be rewarded. Or as Bob Dylan said, "he who is not being born is busy dying." |
Unfortunately like many of the best music and artists with modern indie rock and the like, the best rap/hip-hop tends to be overlooked. There is good stuff out there, some VERY good. I typically see these artists at indie music festivals. You'll never hear them on mainstream radio. And I've never heard these artists cranking on some skull rattling car stereo. I agree, mainstream rap/hip-hop pretty much sucks, just like mainstream pop and "alternative rock". (in my view).
But if you're a true music lover and haven't explored the genre, you should. Bongofury makes some good suggestions. |
Darkmoebious, you are dead wrong on that. Be it Led Zeppelin, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, or even Elvis Presley, all of the early rock 'artists' who with the exception of Elvis in that group, wrote their own songs, and my God PLAYED THEIR OWN INSTRUMENTS, gave huge credit to those whose music they were emulating.
Hollowing Wolf, Robert Johnson..... there are a ton of great blues ARTISTS who are revered, and rightly so, for their absolute greatness, and their role in the founding of Rock n Roll. You just need to read a little bit about the Rolling Stones, and especially Led Zeppelin, they all enthusiastically gave credit to their influences.
Also, they didn't just take their recordings, because they were not talented enough to play the music themselves, and write lyrics over them with a drum maching pumping out a bass line. Instead they took the music to a different direction and added their own slant on it, with songs written and played with the Blues as it's base influence.
Huge difference. |
Bongofury, point taken. For me though, it is simply a matter of taste. I have kids who play, or did play, rap music frequently. I listened to it and realized it wasn't for me. When I say wasn't for me, I mean I was not the target audience.
Listen and let listen is what I say. Still, I don't care to be assaulted while stopped at traffic intersections. Also, I'm sure there are people who take offense at the language when their small children are treated to it. |
"Rap" - they just left the "C" off of the word. |
Rap = the tormenting sounds from Hell. =8^) |
I love Hip Hop. I find most other Audiogon persons posting on this subject are very negatively slanted toward this genre (and it appears rarely have been exposed to the music if at all), given the sophmoric answers I see all the time.
Hip Hop was the best selling genre in the last 20 years. Rock and Jazz are a mere fraction of its sales. Beyond its commercial success, it has also developed a sophisticated market that constantly pushes it to mutate. I think the most intelligent music magazine OF ANY GENRE is Wax Poetics, which over 38 editions has showcased Afro-centric rap music and hip hop (as well as R & B, Soul, Reggae and Jazz). It is the best written magazine we have.
As with any genre, there will always be "artists" that are so derivative and mainstream that they become an afterthought down the road. Rap and Hip Hop have had a high percentage of "one hit wonders." However, it has also produced artists of great depth. I believe that these selected artists and titles will give you a rich and tempered view of sonically arresting music that will stay fresh to your ears:
From England, I can highly recommend The Streets (A grand don't come for free) and Roots Manuva (Awfully Deep).
From New York, the Beatie Boys (Paul's Boutique, Check Your Head), Eric B. and Rakim (Paid in Full), KRS-One (A Retrospective), Kurtis Blow (Kurtis Blow), LL Cool J (Radio),Lauren Hill (The Miseducation), the Notorious B.I.G.(Life After Death), Run DMC (Run DMC) defined the essential East Coast Hip Hop Sound. Public Enemy had the best album of 1989 with "It Takes a Million" which married potical and social commentary. Other artists I can recommend are the Wu Tang Clan and Jay-Z from the outer neighborhoods of NYC.
The Roots are one of the best live instrument bands from Philly.
From the South, I can highly recommend the production of Timbaland, especially with Justin Timberlake and Missy Elliot (So addictive; Under Construction). I can also recommend Spank Rock and OutKast from Atlanta.
Chicago has produced Kanye West (808 and the Heartbreak) and Common. Detroit produced Eminem, who was the best selling artist last decade.
Los Angeles has spawned the Black Eye Peas, A Tribe Called Quest (The Love Movement), Dr Dre, Snoop Dogg, and Ice Cube.
Try these and tell me what you think. Be open to new sounds and you will be rewarded. |
What kills me is when some guy pulls up next to me in what I would stereotype as a southern redneck vehicle, you know, a pickup truck with a rifle rack. And out of the stereo comes loud gangsta rap of the most extreme kind. I don't get that at all. :) |
Sure, some rap and hip-hop qualifies as art as much as any other form. There is really bad music in every genre, so why should rap be any different?
And yes, there are 15+ year old rap albums/cd's that I still play -Digable Planets, NWA, Public Enemy, etc.
Do I consider these recordings as timeless as some Coltrane, Miles, or Nat King Cole, etc? No, but I don't put the Eagles, Police, or Elton John in that category, either. Zep, yes, Eagles, no.
While I'm at it, plenty of rock artist made it big ripping off others and not giving credit. Do you really think Robert Plant thought up "Squeeze the lemon 'til the juice runs down my leg"? |
My son listens to alot of hip hop and rap and don,t tell him ( or he will turn it up louder !) but a few of the non mainstream ones are good . I agree for the most part though with the term Artist or calling it music is less than accurate to my generation (50+). I think it is more a commentary on life, circumstance and a culture we don,t live in so can't or won't get it or like it. In my youth a Gangster was wearing a three peice suite and appeared to run a legitamite bussiness. Now they are Gangstas with their boxers around their necks and their pants around their knees.By the way a Justin Timberlake song... I can name one! The song he did on Saturday night live. My Dick in a Box , I laughed huge when I saw that. |
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it biz was always chessy...pat boone, mrs.miller, leonard nimoy, and countless others. also, spoken-word over a music backdrop isn't new either. technically he's 'toasting', but yellowman has made some great records...de la sol...curtis blow..lots more...as with most new stu ff any music catagory, i'm not as tuned in as i used to be. |
I for one have a lot of hip hop albums...none of the mainstream stuff though...I'm talking about '88 to around '98. And of course, there's much more to hip hop than what you hear on the radio, kind of like more to high end than Bose and B&W :-) |
Referring to the frequent sampling of older R&B, Soul, and rock music, someone once described the current crop of rap/hip hop "artists" as midgets standing on the shoulders of giants. |
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I don't think they are embraced at all, I think they are pushed on kids. Why is retro music so popular still? Because the record companies don't have a clue as to what people like any more.
We never listened to 20 yr old music in the late 70's to early 90's, like kids do now. We wanted something new, now they are just frantically searching for something good, so they end up looking back and saying, "Wow, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Eagles, The Police, Elton John are all pretty good...." |
Rap sucks! So does HipHop. They will probably be embraced by the general public forever. I spent 2 years working next door to one of those places that installs the killer car stereos and big wheels that make your crappy old Caprice look like a covered wagon. It was absolute torture. The "music", the words, the Train horns, the attitude. Part of my ceiling actually fell in from the bass.It was like living in a war zone. We all applauded the day Federal Marshalls came in with Black hoods over their heads and took all the "Hip Hop Sissies" off to jail at gunpoint. |
It kills me when the Rappers call each other "Artists", that's just rich. Especially when so much of the music behind the rhymes are sampled from great R&B and Rock songs.
They can call each other, "Authors" of some pretty catchey and interesting lyric poetry, that I can handle, but don't call them a musical artist.
Crazy dude in Purple = Artist
Jay-Z = Social Poet (with incredibly hot wife, congrats on that dude) |
I don't think very many people on this forum gives a rats ass about rap.I could be wrong,have been before. |
I really don't pay attention to ANY mainstream music, it has been years since I listened to the radio. There is a whole world of music waiting to be discovered on the internet, many young people are just too lazy to search it out. Kids also have the pressure of fitting in so they tend to like what everyone else likes and are easily influenced by the media. As long as corporate america is making money off selling the "hip hop is cool" image it will always be mainstream. |
When will rap music be less mainstream, not soon enough for me. I find rap lyrics a bit like nursery rymes, not much artistry goes into it. I guess you gotta keep it simple for that crowd of people with low IQ. I have Beastie Boys - Check Your Head and Anthrax - Killer B's, not rap rap but in the sense. |
"People said Justin Timberlake is very talented singer/songwriter. I know him because I saw lots of headshot of him on commercials and magazines, but can you name any popular/well known song from him?"
Good question/point. I know I can't and I have a 24 year old daughter who started listening to music when he first hit the scene.
I'm kind of rigid with this but I tend to think a lot less of stuff that's called "music" when no one anywhere in the studio played an instrument during the creation.
I know, drum machines, etc, have been around for years but the vast majority, if not all, of the music you hear on Dylans stuff or Bob Segers stuff or Pearl Jams stuff emanates from a real guitar and a real drum set. |
