Carver Power Amps

That was the review of the Carver that I mentioned in a previous thread I posted earlier.Man, talk about over-rated power output specs.!!

There has been lots of innuendo about individuals qualifications to making claims or statements that are ludicrous and ignorant. Just for the record I am interested in the background of some of the individuals making such critical comments. I will state my own background as I also know that there are some of you who are Physicists, Engineers, Electonics Engineers, etc.

BS in Electrical Engineering from Polytechnic Institute of Brooklyn (currently Polytechnic University), minor in Comp. Sci..

MS in Electrical Engineering from the same as above.

I have taken many courses in acoustics being that audio has been a passion of mine since I was a child.

I have worked and retired (kind of forced after 24 years) as an EE from Bell Labs (currently Lucent) and also did work part-time (many years ago) as a design engineer for a then well-to-do amplifier company. I left because the owners were apparently halucinating. They kept hearing things that just were not there. Many adjectives were made up to describe sound that was basically added distortion (just like the tube gearheads do nowadays, no offense). Don't get me wrong, I know that certain types of distortion can sound pleasant. As a matter of fact, many of these distortions are present in the natural world, such as the pluck of a guitar string. And worse of all, not everyone's hearing is identical, especially some of us somewhat older folks. I marvell when I play test tones and my children clearly hear up to 20kHz clearly and I don't hear it as loud, if at all. All of the above I have accomplished at the ripe young age of 45. I have been into audio since the age of 8. Thanks to my father, who actually allowed me to purchase (with his money) speakers, amps, decks, etc. for our family enjoyment. Incredible hobby for a child at such a young age. My first real audio system was Fisher 500C receiver with AR(?) speakers. We had this system until it was replaced by Rectilinear III speakers (how many of you remember these?) an Ampex reel to reel with a Dynaco ST120 (I think). There have been many, many systems in between.

Finally, yes, room design, and concert hall design, does take into account room dimensions, shape and reflection/absorbtion/diffusion properties. These things can be controlled to some extent to obtain a smooth frequency response. Unfortunately, most of us have been dealt our cards. We have no control over the room dimensions or shape therefore, we work to correct the problems that already exist without having introduced any sound equipment at all. Not always a simple task.

Please forgive me if some of the years don't match up. I'm going from memory and I'm sure the timeframe might be a little off.

All right, it's your turn.

I stand to my OPINION. Carver are rubbish. The amps that B Carver tried to sell in the mid to early 90s, before being pushed out of his company, were mostly sold more due to a careful commercial campaign than due to their audio merits, as someone already pointed out. Perhaps Sunfire amps actually have some brawns now, but these are not the same designs that I am thinking about.
ERRIVERA: Give anyone 20K to sell you a pair of amps.....back in the days(especially in 1989 when I was 17), in economic terms, a top flight Acura cost just about $40,000....Now, see how much the same model can easily cost, $57,000+....20K for a pair of tube amps in 1989 was a lot of money then and in today's dollar terms would be almost 30K+ or more....The fact that a designer can make a great sounding amp for 20K in that time is not necessarily proof that he is a genius. Returning to today, what is the price of a seriously REFERENCE class tube or SS amp, be it stereo or MONO? I cannot think about amps that cost more than the HALCROS for close to 20k or more....No tube amps, except those ridiculously priced Audio Note ONGAKUS come to mind, at 100k.
Come on, there are very talented designers that can make reference class amps at prices nowhere NEAR what those Carver Silver whatever Bob made back in the 1980s. This is not to say that they did sound really GOOD. I think when he took those amps to production, he was not seriously thinking about making money selling those amps....I think there were PART of his COMMERCIAL stategy...."Let me show you an amp that is less than xx lbs, and produces XXX watts per channel and by the way, it has The TUBE TRANSFER FUNCTION of those 20K amps..." If you look at the M amps of then, they had that logo printed on them SILVER 7 or 9 Tube TRANSFER FUNCTION.
I stand by my judgement, I have lived through the barrage of propaganda from the Carver Corporation when BCarver was there....his amps were rubbish to me back then and still are rubbish, in my vivid mind.

To Dalton: As someone else already pointed out, the P HC 3500 you have were the precursors to the JC 1 monos and thus have potential. The same amp, moded by CTC were the precursors to the raved REFERENCE monoblocks, at 5K. By the way ERRIVERA, I would rather keep 15k and have those JC 1 monos now than ever buy the Carver tubed beasts of back then(I do love tube amps.)

PAUL

Want more proof that the Carver A-760x is over-rated?
I have a stereo receiver in my bedroom, a very good one, a Harman-Kardon HK-3470.A high current model rated at 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms and 130 watts per channel into 4 ohms. I brought it into my living room and hooked it and the Carver A-760x up so that I could compare them head-to-head into my main stereo system.I also used a SPL meter from Radio Shack.I was shocked to say the least!Sure the Carver was more open,had better imaging, and a little better transparency than the Kardon.But, the Harman/Kardon had better top-end extension,the bass was dead-even!The mids sounded very similar,and they both sounded flat and lifeless at low volume levels.They both started audibly clipping at the same level on the SPL meter!They both started sounding compressed and harsh at levels the Parasound HCA-3500 took in stride!Head-to-head the Parasound handily beat them in almost every category,especially the bass, image depth, smoothness, detail, and top-end extension.I am so happy that I bought the Parasound.A great amp! A brute of an amp!

Dalton, though Im glad to see your excited, I do have to say that just cranking the volume isnt a sure fire way to say ones better than the next, though Im sure its good for your own experimentation, others may find it a bit lacking! =) Did you know that it only takes 1 db for a change in perception between equipment comparisons?To do real fair comparisons you need a tuned mic that can allow you to level match equipment properly for true comparisons. In fairness to everyone else(like folks who do own and enjoy their Carver products)just having an amp with more wattage doesnt necessarliy make it better. Gobs of power is great for quick, full dynamics, or if your running really inneficient speakers(like low impedance speakers with low sensitivity etc)they are great too. But for speakers like Paradigm Reference speakers which are an easy load to drive and relatively efficient, your going to find that your only putting through 25-50 watts at "normal" listening volumes in reality. There are alot of great amps that put out relatively low wattage and have great sound potential too. Some people even argue that lower powered amps using less parts sound superior too(along with a million other arguments in this stressful hobby! LOL!). Even your room will dictate how much power is needed. If your in a bedroom though with those speakers and amplifier, youll be running less than 25 watts I bet. Which is a good thing anyway. That Parasound amp sounds best when its biased in class A operation, just so your aware.

Danvetc: I just wanted to add one thing towards you. I just feel that you shouldnt have interjected and defended the equipment in question when you yourself dont run the same piece full bandwidth. SOmeone who uses small monitors that dont have bass to begin with, shouldnt defend a product he may not have had complete familiarity with(hey maybe you do, but I am also familiar with that Carver amp and too many others unfortunately). You get your bass from your powered subwoofers, which in effect means your amplifier is now running limited bandwidth. I bet it does sound good with your setup too btw(even though I dont agree with the EQ), but again it proves my point further on the amplifier. You yourself actually tuned out its weakness running dedicated subs and allowing it to juice the upper frequencies. And btw, Im sure your system does sound great. Alot of hifi also has to do with equipment matching. In fact in many ways it can be the most important thing. And you dont need to spend a ton of money to get $40k sound (like me =P ). I can name a few systems Ive owned in the past where I spent a small fraction of the cost of my current system, and I still got 95% of the performance I have presently(but damn Fleetwood Mac and Tracy Chapman have never sounded better!)and had alot of fun putting them together too.