Top ten DD turntables of all time?

Mapman, as to whether sitting on a solid foundation is enough... Build a giant steel-reinforced concrete cube platform - call it 100ft a side. Put an electron microscope on top of it - however the electron microscope is sitting on a piece of plywood which is suspended on top of a giant bowl of jello. Which will matter more to the electron microscope, if a man is tapping on the side of the concrete platform? or if someone is trying to break the bowl of jello with a jackhammer.

Re-plinthing a table is not difficult for those which are meant to be re-plinthed (Technics SP-10Mk2, Technics SP-10Mk3, the Denon DPs, the Sony TTS 6000 and 8000, the JVC TT-81 and 101, the Exclusive P10 (and probably the P3), the Pioneer PL70L (and lower models with the Stable Hanging Rotor system), and probably some of the Kenwoods, and probably the top Diatone). Some of the above area easier than others. In the worst case, you design the plinth and get someone to cut the wood for you. If you want to veneer it, watch a youtube video. Doing it really well on the other hand... I am not a furniture maker either, but some of the really nice plinths don't cost that much to have someone else build.

T_bone,

Please bear with me in that I am very interested in understanding the practical benefits of a more solid plinth and the effect it has on the sound.

What if I just don't tap and keep the jack hammer in the closet? Can I assume that airborne vibrations due to the music playing only is the cause of concern?

Also, the rigidity of the stock plinths on most of these tables has to be significantly better than a bowl of jello, so I understand the analogy but am not sure the magnitude of issues due to rigidity is comparable.

Also what if the speakers are in a different room than the system compared to in the same room so there is no sonic vibrations either? I have both cases with my system. I also have similar speakers in each room so I suppose I could do some testing to see if I hear a difference in the equipment room versus the other.

What work is involved to integrate table and plinth in the case where table is designed to be re-plinthed versus not? Do I have to take apart the old table somehow to put it in the new plinth? What is involved to put it into the new plinth properly?

Mapman, if you click on my system, and look at the pics for the Denon DP-80, I can tell you that screwdriver in hand, it would take me 2mins flat to remove the TT from the plinth (assuming it has no record on it - call it another 10 seconds plus the time to put the record in the jacket if as is). The Sony TTS-8000 pic is nude (i.e. wearing no plinth) so you can see what the structure of one of these is. It comes with mounting screws which are similar to the Denon mounting screws (one removes the platter, and mounts the structure to the plinth). I have not yet plinthed that one but a simple method would be to follow the CLD-style plinth recipes as outlined in the 'Home Despot' thread (or elsewhere on the net), with a cutout designed for this particular pattern of body.

As for vibrations... there are vibrations all around us. Putting a 200lb TT onto a table, which is mounted on a concrete slab, is OK. Putting a passive system like a vibraplane or similar underneath is a whole new ballgame. I cannot tell you why most of us cannot feel the whole world shaking beneath our feet, but in a a lot of places it does...

T_bone,

Thanks for the info. I'll check it out further.

That Denon looks and sounds like a winner! What does it give up to your other good tables?

In my case the Linn Axis sits on a very heavy and sturdy solid oak table. That and my other main listening room with my biggest/best speaks (the OHM f-5s) are both located in the basement and sit on the concrete foundation above a thin but dense carpet and pad.

I do not think I have vibration issues that are audible, but cannot say for certain.

I can go as loud as Hades in the 12X12 equipment room and get no noticeable noise or feedback off the table. I know though that sonic vibrations can have more subtle effects on sound quality so that would be the area of less certainty for me.

I may do the test where I listen in the room with the table and in the other room where the F-5s are without it and see what I might hear.

I will still put this information regarding DD turntables and plinths in my hat for future reference at a minimum because my Linn Axis will surely not last forever, despite its going strong now since about 1987.

Thanks!

What does the Denon DP-80 give up to other tables? Not a huge amount after it has been re-plinthed, put on a magnetic flotation isolation platform, and set up with a good arm. It has better sound than the PL-7L, but it should. The PL-7L is "newer" but at its peak it cost the same as the Denon motor by itself. The Denon is currently in a slightly better than original (if not terribly pretty) plinth, with a decent SAEC arm (the 407/23 - which I rate pretty highly). I think the Pioneer PL-7L can be better than I have gotten it so far because it has a decent arm and arm bearing, and insulator feet which keep the thing smoother than it has a right to be at its price (all the cost in this table was spent on motor and arm, which are decent - the plinth is well-designed but cheaply made. The isolation footers are very "non-audiophile-approved" (big plastic things with a spring system inside), but they work very well. I have not put a high enough compliance cart on it to make it perform its best. I have one on order so hope to have it on next week to test it out.

The Denon DP-80 is better than the Yamaha PX-2, and perhaps also better than the Diatone LT-1, because while they are very nice tables as-is, they are integrated linear trackers and would therefore be difficult to replinth (not impossible for the LT-1, but not easy like the DP-80). The Yamaha PX-1 is very nice. With an isolation platform underneath, it is very, very good. It could be tweaked to be even better (e.g. better tonearm cable, and dampening the diecast plinth might yield improvement (though might not)). I have not yet decided which I like better.

Comparisons fall down against the P3 and the MS. The MS is a great belt-drive TT - huge inertia and stability, especially on an isolation platform. There is zero edginess anywhere. Sometimes I have had to check the motor to see if was running slow (never has) just because it sounds so smooth. Using the older "Japanese heyday" arms (the SAEC, the MS Max 237, the FR-64s), it benefits from tracking a given cart a bit higher/heavier than I do on other tables (by a couple tenths). The Denon 'sounds like' the P3, but so far the P3 is better (in almost all respects). Part of this is that the P3 is naturally set up quite well. The arm, motor, and isolation-damping plinth were all designed to work together, and were all designed to a very high standard - flagships are called that for a reason and so have to be able to defend the colors against all comers. The P3 is smoother, but has unbelievable torque. It is tough to beat that. My next challenge is to see if the P3 will go on the magnetic flotation platform and see whether that makes it even better (the P3 is so heavy I am not sure the isolation platform can handle it).

In any case, all this talk of multiple TTs is showing me that I need to get rid of some!