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Raven v Walker. Colored v Accurate?

This post has been generated following Jonathan Valin’s recent review of the Raven AC-3/Phantom combination in TAS. What intrigues me is not that JV has been lucky enough to review and buy or have on permanent loan yet another world’s best product. A truly astounding strike rate for any reviewer it must be said. Rather, it is what JV readily describes as the colored sound of the Raven/Phantom combination and the apparent appeal of this sound compared with what JV described as the more accurate sound of the Walker that piques my curiosity. This is not, I hasten to add about the relative merits of either table or their arms. The intention is not to have a slug-fest between Walker and Raven owners.

What really interests me is how it is that a product that in the reviewer’s opinion more accurately conveys what is on the source material is perceived as somehow less emotionally satisfying than one which presumably exaggerates, enhances or even obscures some aspect of the recorded information, if one can accept that this is what colored sound or the product’s character is. It appears counter intuitive and the deliberation of the phenomenon is making me question my own goals in audio reproduction. These have been pretty much on the side of more accurate is better and more emotionally compelling with due consideration to financial constraints in my choice of equipment in achieving this goal.

On face value and if you can accept the hyperbole it appears that the colored is better route is a little like going to a concert and putting on a device that allows you to alter the sound you hear. You twiddle a couple of knobs, sit back with a smile on your face and say “Ah! That’s better, that’s what I want it to sound like” You like it but it’s not necessarily what the musicians intended you to hear.

It seems logical that the closer one can get to accurately reproducing every piece of information recorded onto the medium then the closer you should be able to get to the actual performance, together with all the acoustic cues existing at that performance. I am making an assumption here that the recording medium is actually capable of capturing these things in the first instance.

We have our 12 inch pieces of vinyl on the platters of two systems under evaluation. We are not in the recording booth. The musicians are not on hand to play the piece over and over so that we can compare the live sound to the master tape and even if we did every performance is unique so we can never compare a second or third live performance with the one we just recorded. How then can the accuracy of a turntable/arm/cartridge combination and its ability to convey the emotion of the recorded event truly be evaluated? Ideally we should at least have the master tapes at hand to play on the same system in which we are evaluating the TT’s. The comparison will of necessity still be subjective but the determination would seem to be more believable than if the master tape were not part of the evaluation. If the master tape gave the listener no emotional connection with the musicians then I would contend that there would be something fundamentally flawed in another part of the playback system.

So in evaluating the two combinations would the more accurate combination be the more emotionally appealing? I cannot see how it would be otherwise unless we just don’t like what has been recorded or the way it has been recorded, the musicians have not made an emotional connection with us and the slightly flawed copy is preferred to the original. Is this why God made tone controls?

I have used the words seems, appears and presume quite deliberately, not to have a bet each way but because I am cognizant of the fact that we are, in audio reproduction dealing with the creation of an illusion and creating that illusion with people who have varying levels of perception, different experiences and tastes, different playback media and different physical replay environments so the task at hand for audio designers, humble reviewers and even we poor consumers could not be more complex.
phaser
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rauliruegas
9,123 posts
 
Dear Elinor: +++++ " Let us not forget that the choice of microphone at the recording session will color the recording not to mention the placement of the mics and the room in which the recording was made " +++++

this subject is of paramount importance and if we own an accurate system/room at home then we can hear all that.

IMHO I think that we and the reviewers ( specially these one. ) have to understand that what we heard/hear when we attend to a Concert Hall or a Jazz Club or any live music event is different of what is in the recording, many of us want that our systems sound like what we heard on a concert and this means that some of us like some kind of " colorations, let me explain:

when we attend to a live event we are not the only listeners in that place/room almost always is full of people and normally we have a seat that is 15-30 meters from the main stage ( in classical music concerts ) and not always at the center seat position of that main stage, what we are hearing has to be not only with that distance but with the surrounded people around us that affect the sound that comes in our ears and many other subjects ( this is only an example of the recording differences against what we hear/heard in a live event. ), what happen in a recording? in almost all recordings the Hall is empty and the Micro(s) are nearest ( a lot nearest ) to the whole instruments that we are and I have to say that that Micro(s) have an accurate frequency response that are a lot wider that our ears frequency response/perception, all these facts and many others on the recording process tell us that what is on the recording is different to our live perception, now if this is true why almost all of us ( including reviewers ) want to hear/heard our system home in the way we hear/heard at the Concert Hall?, IMHO two different things to evaluate, yes I know that only the people that were at the recording session can/could know how that recording sound and that's why is so important to attend to live events at different seat position and to try to hear ( if possible ) in your home " sounds " from single instrument like: piano, violin, guitar, horn, etc, etc.
Where want I to " go " with all these " words " ?: that almost all of us are hearing " colored " sound reproduction at home, only a few care about what really mean " truer to the recording ", many people likes the " warmer/lush " sound of the live music but my friends that " warmer/lush " sound it is not ( well some times is ) in the recording it is only what we like or what we heard in almost different condition that the recording conditions. Well I think that all this does not help to much on this thread but you Elinor touch it and it is important ( IMHO ) to have opinions ( different ones ) on the subject.

Other things ( IMHO ) that some of us ( including reviewers ) does not have very clear is that if in any decent TT you hear ( like Elinor experience with the Raven ) different tonearms with different or the same cartridge you will hear different kind of sound: different tonality, different accuracy level, different soundstage, different...,different many subjects.
If we believe these facts then why the reviewers ( any ) or us like s to make TT shoot-out between different TT(s) that each one comes with different tonearm/cartridge combination?, it does not make sense, at least to me.

So, that JV Colored v Accurate ( in the way that the review was made ) really means nothing other than JV likes for the better that cartridge performance with the Walker tonearm.

I think that are many ways to make that kind of shoot-out but maybe the only way ( at least the fair way ) is to make that comparison using the same tonearm/cartridge/arm board combination on both ( any ) TTs, this could be make using stand alone arm boards like the Kuzma one.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
piedpiper
753 posts
 
All very well written; only to comment that it is certainly no surprise that any table should allow different arms or mats or cartridges to sound different.

... and any attempt at capturing accuracy and/or euphony will be a compromise, only to enjoy the pursuit.
sirspeedy
738 posts
 
All "quality" acoustical guitar companies offer different tone woods,as a choice for the end user/player/musician,for many models.These "all" alter the sonic perceptions of the end user,and the listener.
I was at Lincoln Center,when the Julliard Orch performed Oliver Messiaen's monumental nine movement Turangalela(spelling?).The hall's sonics aided the dissonant characteristic of this incredible music,but after each movement there was a "rush" of white haired older women dying to get out.
I loved it,btw!!
emailists
607 posts
 
I have to reread the review, but could one say that "colored" is more an observation of taste, while resolution, detail and ability to discipher individual instruments, etc. is a more objective yardstick?

Also I wonder the scale of the differences. Comparing two speakers, the differences are likely quite large. Is it possible that in JV's quest to discern a difference in the two tables, he is actually describing subtle shadings rather than wholesale shifts in reproduction quality?

I think the thing that I enjoyed most about the review was the fact I am probably getting most of what JV heard (on my lowley Raven One/Phantom) for pennies on the dollar compared to the super table Walker.

Here's to Thomas at TW Acustic for creating a product that brings such a high level of performance to the homes of we less fortunate music lovers.

Just the idea that we can get something that even holds a candle to the likes of the Walker for the price of an standard mail order catalog table is pretty amazing.
phaser OP
71 posts
 
I very much appreciate both the input and the thoughtfulness of so much of that input. Some very interesting ideas have been expressed in examining my query on accuracy vs coloration and their relationship to the emotionality of the music we listen to. The two terms I chose as a heading by the way because both were mentioned in the JV's review and for no other reason. While I deliberately steered away from comparisons of equipment a number of respondents have put in their two cents worth and I would like to respond to some of those comments also.

Before I do so , however I would like to state that JV's review could have been about any piece/s of equipment. That it was two TT's is really incidental and in truth for me more interesting to discuss as analogue is my passion. It was his assertion that what he perceived as being the more accurate sound was not as emotionally satisfying compared with his perception of the sound produced by a component(components actually as it was the combination of the Raven/Phantom to which he was referring) that he expressed as having a slight coloration that caused me to sit up and take note. If we were reading about two preamps the assertion would have triggered the same response in me as it is this assertion which appeared to me at first glance to be counter intuitive.

In considering some of your responses and in pondering my navel for a few moments, however it seems reasonable to conclude that indeed the coloration could add impact and even a heightened emotional response. Movie makers do it all the time. Just think how a strange camera angle, a super close up, a flash to another scene, lighting, sound and other manipulated cues can produce a far greater emotional response than watching something unfold in front of your eyes a few feet away. The super reality becomes more intense than the everyday reality. Also, as many have pointed out in this thread in slightly different words- 6 billion people, 6 billion realities.

For me this realization poses some interesting future choices. My perceptions are changed and whatever happens I know with certainty that I will "enjoy the pursuit"

Now I would like to mention something specifically about JV's Raven/Phantom Walker/Black Diamond comparison. Firstly, I believe JV did in fact refer to the combination, not the Raven AC sans Phantom in giving his recommendation. While I agree with Raul and others who mention the indisputable fact that to truly judge a TT's comparative performance against another the arm/wiring/cartridge/support/phono stage etc. need to be identical in this instance he was comparing one combination against another and I cannot see how this is invalid. It doesn't tell you how the Raven will sound with another arm but it does tell you how JV thought it sounded with the Phantom in his system compared with the Walker/Black Diamond. Caveat emptor as always.

I would add that I have heard neither table but have a tenuous relationship with both. I was in fact looking to buy the AC-3 when the Debut Vacuum/Synchro Wave came on the market on Audiogon(thanks for looking after it so well Strapper211) and the table that was bought to replace the Debut I now own was a Walker. In any event I am a very satisfied Basis owner with no thoughts of changing.
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