The most detailed speaker cable??

I never asked you to trade in your cables or that i could hear the difference between -.1 dB down at 20 KHz and a flat response. Both of those are false statements that you use to divert attention away from the real facts of the matter.

I simply asked you to listen to some cables within the confines of your system and see if you heard a difference. If you can honestly hear a difference, those differences have to be measurable using the proper tools and test methodology. As i pointed out in that other thread and explained why, ABX tests are flawed. The same tools that could be used to demonstrate that ABX boxes alter the electrical signal that is fed into the speakers is the same device that will show that speaker cables alter the load that the amp responds to and that is fed into the speakers. The fact that you are afraid to perform such a simple test as swapping one high impedance speaker cable for another high impedance speaker cable while you continue to spout the same rhetoric only lessens your credibility.

Eldartford is both an engineer and a cable skeptic, yet he's open minded enough to try such a test. Are you afraid you might actually hear a difference and have to change your mind? If you have such faith in your "cable convictions", here's your chance to prove it to yourself. Sean
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I'd like to take Sean and Robert E. Greene of TAS and lock them up in a room together and watch the festivities. The esteemed Dr. Greene thinks pretty much like Rsbeck except that he also doesn't care much about source components or amplification. I respect all three of these gentlemen, by the way.

With some audio buddies yesterday, we wanted to evaluate a new IC. The CD player had two sets of outputs, so we used one for one brand and the second for the other brand. The comparison was then done by switching the input on the preamp. The first time through, the system's owner made the switch while music was playing, so "now switching to Brand X", then "back to Brand Y", etc. None of us could hear a meaningful difference. I suggested that the rapid switching was a problem, so we listened to a passage with Brand X and then paused and listened to the same passage with Brand Y. This time through, there were noticeable differences.

My question is this: Which listening procedure is the most flawed? I'm telling this tale and asking this question in this thread because this is exactly what is at issue here. Rsbeck and Dr. Greene would maintain (I'm putting words in their mouths, but indulge me please) that the physics dictate no meaningful differences. Ergo, any differences we believe we hear while listening are imagined or whatever.

There's a sh*tstorm in the Harbeth user's group forum now over the issue of aftermarket bi-wire jumpers. Some users (including me) believe they hear a meaningful improvement when replacing the stock jumper plates with Audience or other third-party jumpers. We have taken considerable harsh criticism from the "scientists", especially REG.

I know we go down this road over and over again in these forums. You don't have to tell me that if *I* can hear a difference, what should I care what the science says. I always make my purchase decisions based on what I hear. Nevertheless, I would like to know what is TRUE because, unlike some audiophiles, I am open-minded to the possibility that my subjective evaluation is not reliable and that I need to temper what I sometimes hear with a pinch of reason.

I do not think that the money you spend is necessarily worth the sound you get especially in cables. But if you are going to tell me that cables make no difference you are just crazy. I was a skeptic as well but over time, and lot's of listening, I have been converted. Remember, the body feels sound as well as the ears hear so there are additional factors at play. I have even swithed out all my power cords. No this must really be crazy but I can hear a difference. There is only one way to go here, try things and make a choice for yourself. Just buy used and you can't go wrong with the adventure.

>>It was flat. Why? It was proven, scientific knowledge at that time.<<

Uh, no. It was the mythology of the time. It was scientific investigation that
proved the world is round.

When you investigate the claims made about cables -- you end up laughing.

Look -- put up a cable and tell me why I should admire it. What does it do?

It sounds good?

John Dunlavy used to do a test where he would invite audiophiles and audio
critis to his lab, position techicians behind speakers, show the audience Zip
Cord and the audience would be unimpressed, then the technicians would
switch them with exotic speaker cables and the audience would wax poetic
about all of the huge improvements and changes they were hearing. Only
problem -- the cables were never changed, it was Zip Cord all along.

Cable testimonials aren't convincing.

Not to mention the way people talk about cables.

I was in a thread where a guy wanted more bass. People recommended
cables. I asked him about his system and it turned out he was using
bookshelf speakers. I suggested he buy full range speakers and cable
enthusiasts became agitated and told me I didn't understand what cables can
do. Uh.....yeah. I don't think they can make bass in a speaker without bass
capability.

Magical thinking. Weird non-sequiter insults.

Another time someone was recommending thousand dollar speaker cables to
a kid with a $500 system. The kid was complaining his system is too bright.
I looked at the pictures of his system and three walls of his listening room
were celing to floor plate glass windows. I suggested room treatments and
other component upgrades and this drew more bizarre comments.

I find it interesting that people who claim to have such sensitive hearing that
they can be disturbed by inaudible things in speaker cables an overlook
macro problems in their speakers and rooms.

It don't add up.

You get an inch deep in the cable phenomenon and your BS Meter goes off
the Richter Scale.

>>I simply asked you to listen to some cables within the confines of your
system and see if you heard a difference.<<

See -- here's another problem. The thread was not about whether cables can
sound different. I believe cables CAN sound different. In this thread alone, I
told the poster that if he wanted tonally BRIGHT speaker cables, or added
BRIGHTNESS in his system, he should do the minimum -- get a frequency
response chart of any proposed cable.

The issue was whether or not .1 db down at 20Khz is an audible roll-off.

In my experience with Sean, he has chased me from thread to thread telling
me about this "ROLL-OFF." Of course, he didn't specify the
"roll-off" so I looked up the information and posted links to
frequency response charts which showed that this "roll-off" is
.088 down at 20Khz.

Great -- another bogus cable claim.

Sorry, but when you do stuff like that, credibility goes bye bye.

So, Sean tells me that he can hear this "roll-off."

Great -- another bogus cable claim.

If he wants to concede now that he can hear no such thing, we can at least
get to some semblance of reality. We'll see.