How do you deal with vibration?

>>Nevertheless, at some level it is real and an explanation for why vibration
control can influence what we hear.<<

We have no *proof* that it is real.

Whether this sounds insulting or not. there are always at least two
explanations for "hearing" anything.

1) There is something "real" to hear.

2) It is caused by the imagination.

John Dunlavy used to do an experiment where he would invite audiophiles
and audio critics to his lab and position technicians behind a set of speakers.
The technicians would employ Zip Cord and the audience would be
unimpressed. Then the technicians would swap out the Zip Cord for exotic
looking speaker cables and the audience would exclaim enthusiastically
about the radical improvements they heard.

Only problem:

The cables were never really changed -- it was still Zip Cord.

Why did the audience "hear" large improvements when there was
absolutely no difference?

The mind is powerful and can supply us with sensory experiences that have
nothing to do with "reality."

So, it is always necessary -- for some of us -- to question whether any
testimonial is based on something real or something imagined.

Is it real or is it imagination? This is a reoccurring concern throughout Audiogon and Audio Asylum. Two additional factors seem always to also weigh into this dispute, namely is there a theory and can it be measured. Above and beyond this are two additional considerations-is there a cheap alternative to more expensive technologies and products and must benefits be proven to others to use them yourself.

The two paths of logic are as follows. First, without a theory to account for an observation, especially if the product is expensive, and if there are no measurable differences, it is imagination. Second, if there is an observed benefit, if you can afford it, buy it as it is real. The words, "scientific" and "sham" are words introduced into the first logic. The proponents of the second logic, if pushed, suggest that often science advances based on observations that defy old science theory, such as the impact of the X-ray discovery, etc. Man's scientific theories have often proven incorrect and often capture only a portion of what happens around us. They also suggest that they do not need protection by others from scams.

It is quite clear that neither of these logics can prove the other wrong. Much space has already been devoted to this useless enterprise, but I guess since we continue to participate, we must enjoy these crusades.

The original post here concerned how do people deal with vibration, not whether it is meaningful to do so. Perhaps we should answer that question.

For the last 20 years, I have devoted much time and money to controlling vibration. I started with marble shelves suspended on innertubes and racket or tennis balls with slits. Later I bought the first TipToes and ultimately got Valid Points, which in my experience are the best of this idea, although the Goldmund points are also quite good. I tried many stands and shelves and still have many Mana stands, which are basically spikes pointed up and down. Until the Acapella shelves, I consistently found the Neuance shelves the best, at least in my system.

About five or six years ago I got the first Aurios. I found them a real pain as the shelf had to be quite level to get the real benefit. Also heavy powercords and interconnects made their use a nightmare. I also tried the RollerBlocks and their Grade 3 balls. These and later Aurios, I always found, could not perform at the level of the original 1.0 Aurios, especially when used with tungsten carbide balls on top. On the Neuance stands, I never found feet to add anything to the quality of the sound.

Then I discovered Shun Mook pucks on top. These give a very subtle benefits in realism that cannot be otherwise achieved. I have tried ebony pucks as well as other pieces of wood.

I should also say that all along Goldmund has been advocating two soft feet and one grounding hard foot. Under their cd transport this clearly worked, especially with their quite heavy stand. Even with my Acapella shelves on Mana stands and using the Acapella feet, I do not get the purity of sound that I once got with the Goldmund transport.

I suspect that ultimately everyone will agree with me that this is a quest that is never achieved. I have been up many deadends but generally have advanced, often at substantial expense. All I can suggest is to try new devices but be prepared to conclude now or later that they are no benefit.

Very interesting post... I'm not quite at the point to begin tweaking my system with stands, virbrapods, aurios, wood blocks, etc. as I am still in search of the right component synergy...

Though one question does remain on my mind:

I thought that I would ask what the effect of a slab of granite would have? What type of vibration does it remedy (ie. assuming there is vibration and it can be remedied, of course)?

Thanks!

Tbg...I completely agree that turntables and tube amplifiers need all the vibration control they can get. I was very skeptical about SS circuitry, and the simple test I performed showed that, at least for my phono preamp, vibration has no effect.

CD players are still an open issue in my mind. However, I have figured out a way to test mine. I have a CD test disc which includes two tracks, digital zero (which should be zero signal) and one LSB (which is electrically measurable but inaudible). I can put the player in the test box, play these tracks, and see if the player output is affected.

Mdp0430, in my string of stuff I have tried, I neglected to include granite. Yes, I have tried it under amps as well as under the Mana stands. Its greatest strength is its mass, which is hard to vibrate at low frequencies, but it does ring. Ultimately I had a Sound Anchor stand with a steel bottom sand box on top and then the 2 inch thick granite tomestone under the amp. This all preceeded my getting Mana stands and these proved not only easier to live with and more effective.

I did get bass with great punch and quieter overall sound with the granite on sand combo, but the Manas yielded almost as good bass but much better dynamics in the music. I should say that at about the same time I switched from solid state amps to single ended triode tube amps used with efficient horns.

I did try to get the best of both worlds by putting the granite under the Mana stands. This did liittle but going to multiple Mana stands in a pile, what they call levels two, three, etc., gave clearly better results.

I think the thickness of the granite is very important. Mine was only 2 inches thick. I once tried one on top the other and that was better. I was tempted to try it but never went to three layers. As you can see, I am inclined to excess.

All that I can really say is that mass is one important element in vibration control. I doubt if anything would be better than 8 inch granite under all your equipment, assuming that your floor would support it.