Alex - I resent that you are implying that my Overdrive adds coloration. I also have the same exact goals of accuracy and natural liveness and I in fact achieve them.
This was a cheap shot IMO.
Steve N./
Empirical Audio |
Matt - if your speakers are large, and you are getting sufficient bass, I would stick with the big room.
Treatments can be attractive, such as the graphics covered side absorbers. They are actually art.
1/4 round tube traps are really just an extension of the speakers and look like furniture too. May people that see mine just think it is more speakers or part of the speakers because they are located right next to the speakers.
One thing that is important though is to eliminate as much of the floor bounce and echoes as possible. Thick, large area rugs work and overstuffed chairs in the room will help.
If you are not already using the EQ features of Amarra, then this is a no-brainer. They will make $20K speakers sound and perform like $100K speakers. The EQ is really easy to use (just see my Computer Audio Info webpages). You will need an audio analyzer hardware and software. I often use my iPad with an analyzer app and a Earthworks M30 mic and preamp. The Mic is around $600 and the preamp is $400. This mic is the reference that most professionals use. There is a compensation file included that makes the response of the mic ruler-flat. See the same webpages for links to this.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I have never made any comments about Alexs products, directly or indirectly
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - I used to be totally opposed to any EQ in my system, but that was before Amarra. This is so transparent that it can both correct for deficiencies in your speakers as well as reduce the room resonances. Everything gets better. This is the cheapest, most significant upgrade you will ever do. It can transform your system.
I use it at shows whenever possible and at home. Its a bit or work to get it installed and do the tweaking, but not too bad.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Paul79 - not to digress, but are you using any 6SN7 or KT66 NOS tubes?
I've been through a bunch of these and found the sweet ones. Email me.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - usually the only shows I have time for are Newport Beach and RMAF in Denver, and sometimes only one of those. NY show is really expensive so hard to justify. I would like to do Montreal some time though.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - My customers have yet to find any S/PDIF cable at any price that beats my BNC-BNC coax with RCA adapters. Only $250.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
My coax cable is listed as an option for most of my component products. I don't really want cable pages on my website. They are expensive to create and then I just have to get rid of them when the cable parts become obsolete or I decide not to build any more.
Steve N. |
Mac Mini needs several optimizations:
1) External DC linear power supply
2) SSD rather than HD
3) use the 5th USB port from the edge and nothing in the other ports
4) Make these changes to the OS: "Audio Optimization Guides" found in iTunes iBooks
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Abruce - its actually the 4th port on a 2009 Mini. I'm not sure about newer Minis. They may be different. Try all ports to determine the best one.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
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No. Best thing is to compare them all
Steve N/
Empirical Audio |
The Overdrive DAC will likely not support DSD in the future. I have another DAC design in mind for DSD.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Could that be BS since they sell the pricey outboard unit?"
IMO, yes. Implementation is everything.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"It's not BS, as introducing signals having significant high frequency content (e.g., fast risetimes and falltimes), and that likely have significant amounts of noise riding on them, can potentially cause issues at supposedly unrelated circuit points elsewhere in the design."
What are you talking about? Where did you get your EE degree?
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Al - Okay, I understand now what you are saying. These are specific effects, like ground-bounce, crosstalk, ground-return sharing, EMI etc..
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
APL wrote:
"Yes you are using Op Amps for I/V conversion, but the Berkeley example has them all the way, from DAC chip to output."
Op-amps are far from perfect, even though the textbooks would lead you to believe it. However, like most things, the answer is "it depends". It depends on how the power for the op-amp is treated and what op-amp you are using. I have done a lot of experimenting with op-amps in the past and learned a lot of things that are not in the textbooks. If you choose the right one and treat it properly in the design, it can be just as good as a discrete circuit and sometimes better because the layout of most discrete circuits does not allow for optimum power delivery. The compact nature of chips allows for optimum power delivery.
"Further more, claiming that S/PDIF is best as well as DSD to PCM conversion (even done by a computer) is way out of line, at least in my experience. "
I never claimed that S/PDIF is the best method for DAC input, but again the answer is "it depends". If the circuit is well-designed, a good coax cable is used and the right receiver chip is used, it can be every bit as good as the best internal USB interface. So close that no one can pick it out in A/B comparison. I have done this.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Don't sweat it, Matt. My room at RMAF last year had dCS Vivaldis in adjacent rooms on both sides. I listened to these. Although they are very good, I preferred the DAC in my room, the ODSE.
I would welcome a shootout with these DACs but I would rather wait untl the ODSX is available. I think it will be unchallenged in the market. Also more expensive than the ODSE. Both will be offered, since they are at diffent pricepoints.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Using one op-amp is a lot different that cascading several of them. They do add compression, just like any active stage will, even tubes (but to lesser extent). The fewer the better. That is why I use one. The one I use is a lot more that just I/V converter too. It has 4 different functions.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
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Matt - the Overdrive SX will not support DSD. DSD will likely be supported in a new less-expensive DAC I have planned. It will probably not have XLR outs or volume control, but the plan is that it will be DC-coupled.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
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AudioL - no, I used to offer a tube DAC. This one will have a similar SS output stage to my SX DAC, but direct-coupled. This means it does not have coupling caps and is not class-A.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Guido - supporting DSD would require a complete redesign of the SX DAC, including a new D/A chip. It makes more sense to put it in a completely new design that uses a chip that supports this. I am not a real proponent of DSD anyway, but I will make it available to my customers.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
William has nothing up on me. We are not colleagues either. He has no rights to use the Empirical Audio brand.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Guido - DSD support will be in this future DAC and supported by the D/A chip. It will not be called Overdrive however.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
AudioL - I am one guy, so I usually come out with one new product each year. Sometimes its just a USB module upgrade or a new clock module that can be applied to existing products. The Off-Ramp has gone through 6 generations now over about 8 years. The Overdrive changed from Signature to SE and now will have SX version as well.
The Overdrive SE has been around since early 2012 and it will continue to be sold for a while. There have been 2 or 3 upgrades offered to it over that period.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - Just shipping the DAC will create lots of static charge build-up, not to mention all of the temperature changes. Another break-in is required each time.
This is why even fully broken-in components don't sound their best until the last day of a show like RMAF.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Granny - have you modded Jensencapacitors.com ribbon inductors into your speaker crossovers yet? They are the best on the planet IMO.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Granny - the Jensen inductors will transform your system.
Ricevs - The Jensen inductors break-in almost immediately. I have used the 12 gauge throughout crossover designs with excellent results.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Everyone seems to think that the Overdrive is just a case of "particular customer preference". Well, I encourage you to read some of the professional reviews. They state over and over that tracks these reviewers play have never sounded like this before through ANY other DAC. This really is an exceptional DAC and a giant-killer at this price. There are a lot of technical breakthroughs in it that are not present in any other DAC. Look for a review from Dagogo on the next couple of weeks, more of the same.
And BTW, the Overdrive SX, which will be available soon is a lot better.
Steve N.
Emporical Audio |
Jon2020 - the Bricasti is again compared to the Overdrive SE as well as other DACs in the Dagogo review. Interesting reading when it comes out. There were a few improvements made to the Overdrive SE after the Directstream review.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
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Its good to hear that I'm not the only one doing continuous improvements. Small companies are agile enough and have lower overhead, enabling this.
The unfortunate thing is that most buyers believe the best performing products come from the large companies that spend a lot on advertising and marketing teams. They definitely have the most expensive products....
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Goose is right. Do the scans with a good mic. What I have found is that minimal acoustic treatments, including sidewall absorbers, rearwall scattering(diffusors) and a couple of bass traps is about right. Anything more is overkill. Then apply the EQ with Amarra. This will make a bigger difference on bass resonances than any treatments.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Erik - the advantage of the Aurilic Aries IMO is the Ethernet/network interface. If it uses a minimal Linux kernel to generate and output USB, then it may sound better than a computer, maybe not. All of this effort to reduce jitter in the source device is unnecessary if the output is S/PDIF, AES or I2S. The issue here is generating USB to make it compatible with USB DACs.
The best way to do Ethernet is to go directly to I2S and avoid the S/W and H/W overhead of USB entirely. This is what my new "Interchange" module does. Interchange can be swapped in to replace any of my Async USB interface modules, on my Off-Ramp converters or Overdrive DACs. It gives you wired Ethernet direct to I2S, supporting up to 384kHz and double DSD, just like the Aries. WiFi can be added with an external device, but I suspect most will use it wired. It is DLNA, so some of the extra features of the Aries are not supported.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
As for servers, I have used the Antipodes several times and it will trounce most computers, particularly playing FLAC or ALAC files. It is the only server I know of that goes the full 9 yards on hardware and software. It is still a computer, but uses Linux and lots of minimized custom and optimized code. It is compatible with the Overdrive.
That said, I think the ultimate solution is not a computer and USB, but the Ethernet DAC, so the computer driving the music over the LAN does not matter anymore. This is why I'm designing the Ethernet interface.
Steve N. |
"In an ideal (or future) audio world, a server will do this for you. Its simply an engineering lag"
The music server may seem like a panacea, but it isn't. The same jitter problems exist inside. Its like comparing a CD transport and a DAC and concluding that if they are combined, it will solve everything. You know how that turned-out.....
The real solution is using wired Ethernet instead of USB. This is a solution that makes the computer and its power unimportant. Cabling is unimportant. Even the playback software should in theory be unimportant, but I feel that it will be. This is why I am working on this solution now.
All of my USB interfaces will be upgradable to wired Ethernet LAN interfaces.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"I'm Sorry. Can you explain the benefit of Ethernet over USB?
I'm having a hard time processing what the advantages are."
Its Ethernet only, no USB. Ethernet is packetized and has retry error correction. It treats all data the same, unlike USB, which uses a streaming mode for audio.
"Doesn't this all come down to Jitter and clocking?"
IT always does, however there are other considerations. Because USB uses more of the computer OS audio stack and Ethernet uses none of that, this is the advantage. Also, USB is not packetized and has no error correction/retry like Ethernet.
"Wouldn't the ideal server be connected to a DAC that shares a single external high end clock?"
The ideal DAC uses a high-quality internal clock for master clock.
"Steve, does your ODSX have inputs for an external clock?"
Yes, actually. The I2S input provides the external clock(s).
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Paul79 - which Ethernet cable is important in your setup?
Are you using a USB DAC or an Ethernet interface like squeezebox?
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"In other words, you are working on an Ethernet streamer or "renderer" that nixes the puter and takes its clocking out of the equation. Devialet and dBsystems (also out of France and which I used to own) have done that."
Correct. The difference is that I use novel techniques to reduce jitter in these interfaces.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Paul79 - that is a bit disconcerting to hear. I'm hoping it will not be the case with my interface. I did not galvanically isolate because Ethernet is coupled with magnetics....
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
knghifi - Isn't the storage of the data in a buffer after de-packetization in the device sufficient?
What purpose does it serve to store the data in another memory buffer?
I do reclock the data to reduce jitter.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
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"if the sound of the PS Audio Bridge is representative of what Ethernet has to offer"
Just speculating, but it might be a case of using an OEM module rather than designing it themselves. I have not seen what they use. This happens a lot in this industry. If enough vendors use the same OEM module and the SQ is mediocre, it can put the damper on an entire technology. Look at the large number of OEM USB modules that are in products for different companies, and the resultant bad experiences we hear about on this and other forums. Both USB and Ethernet are viable mediums and can both sound amazing.
"until a big, reputable audiophile manufacturer comes out with a "plug and play" server that rips CDs, provides storage for backup, is easy to control with an iPad, and sounds stellar"
You might see everything from your big manufacturer except the "sounds stellar" part. Big manufacturers almost never get it right IME. I have modded a LOT of their gear in the past. Even most of these companies use OEM modules rather than designing it themselves. Just look at the history. Its a very few small boutiques that get it right IME. Each designer has an area of expertise, so its really difficult to find a designer that is excellent in all areas. This is why even the big guys often resort to OEM modules. Even if they do design it themselves, the designer may not be particularly strong in the key areas.
Besides, why would a really good experienced designer work for someone else?
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Looked at the PS Audio Bridge. Looks like their own design. Its gotten some good reviews.... |
Melb - some things that are still variables, even with DLNA is the CODECs for compressed music on the computer. They can screw up the SQ. Also, the S/W that formats the data to send to be packetized. That can be screwed-up.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - Here are a couple of simple and inexpensive things for your power:
Have the electrician install plastic flexible conduit terminating to plastic boxes. Get black, white and green THHN 12 gauge wire and have them precut and twist the black and white together using one person holding one end of the wires and the other with the wires in a drill pulling against the other and then loosly wrap the green around the twisted-pair. Pull the wire through the plastic conduit using a fish-tape. then install good outlets like screw-connection Pass and Seymour. No need to get crazy with the outlets.
The plastic boxes and conduit does not restrict the electric fields and therefore does not restrict the dynamic current flows.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Jon - could not find it in buyers guide issue.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
There are only reviews of mini-DACs in there and the best-rated DACs page does not include the W4S. Are you talking the November issue of TAS? |
Thanks Al. I was looking in the 2014 buyers guide. I guess I don't get that with my subscription...
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - another thing I did in my listening room was stagger the footings and support pony walls under the floor, so the floor was not supported in the middle, causing a second harmonic in the floor.
Also, I used two layers of 3/4" MDF on the floor, glued together, staggered and screwed down, much like the walls of a speaker. It has thick carpet over it. The walls of the room are also sound-proofed to some extent. One has plywood under the sheetrock.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - make sure that all 4 AC runs are from the same phase in the panel. For your digital, you may want to use one circuit for all of it.
Isolated grounds do work, but as Al says they do not meet code. I have a friend that did this. He put a 6 foot ground rod into the earth and ran wires to all of his audio outlets rather than using the ground wires from the panel.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
The best grounding sceme is to isolate every components grounds from each other in the signal cabling, but use common earth ground for all, so there are no ground loops. I do this using combination of good analog transformers and digital isolators. |
