Audiolab - Yamaha and $6K? You can't be serious.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Beeswax - what you say is far from the real truth. The SQ of DACs has little to do with the generation of chips used. Async technology is a big improvement as far as reducing jitter, but the design and implementation are still much more important. Its really easy to use the latest and greatest chips and technology and achieve a really harsh and fatiguing sound. There rae dozens of examples of this out there. What is hard is to use older chips and achieve a really pleasing, analog sound, with no detail or frequencies masked.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - have not heard the Trinity or even heard of it.
I have had the ODSX for many months now and I'm convinced that nothing out there beats it at any price. I'm in the process of trying Jupiter caps in place of Duelund. Duelunds take a long time to break in.
The production version of ODSX is coming along. Panels and knobs are in finishing process now.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt -the plan is to put either XMOS USB interface or Network Renderer Ethernet interface on the SX DAC. Still working on the XMOS prototype and almost ready to tape-out the network renderer module.
SX uses the same size chassis, but new panels and a new knob with a diamond in it.
Steve N.
Emmpirical Audio |
The diamond is the pointer. This pointer has magical powers.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Ketcham - I only use the very best D-color excellent-cut diamonds. I know my diamonds.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Al - I believe SX will be in the $10K range. I'll think about the diamond name. Maybe Diamond SX.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
AOL - the Diamond SX is significantly better than the SE. Better focus, more 3-D, better imaging. Literally everything going on in the music track is crystal clear and pinpoint image.
The Diamond is some bling to insure that the customer feels that his investment is worth it and also to distinguish my top DAC from the Overdrive SE. Its also nice to point out that even the dCS at 5-10X the price does not have any diamonds on it. This definitely beats it.
There is literally nothing I can think of that would make this DAC have better SQ, at any price. I'm already using the best capacitors on the planet.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
That did jog me. One possibility is an external linear supply rather than the SMPS I use. I would be really big box though, about 10X of the DAC.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - actually, if I modify a couple of Dynamo supplies, I can try this right away for +12V digital and +18V anaolog supplies. I don't have any -18V linear to try for the third supply, but this voltage is less critical. I can just use the Substation for this.
CharlesD - A linear will have less noise I think, even using the same regulator.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
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Matt - just got the new Duelund and Jupiter caps to try. Building a new version of the XMOS USB module. Diamond knob looks really nice.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - I'm not worried. SX slays them all.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Most of these clock inputs are word-clock only, which is simply a bad idea.
The Overdrive already has I2S input, which includes word-clock, bit clock and master clock. I am already using this with my Off-Ramp and soon my new Interchange network renderer. Separate external master clocks (2 needed) are only interesting if the external clocks are a lot better than the internal clocks.
A word clock output however is a much better idea. This way the DAC always becomes the master., but the source must have word-clock input and be able to sync to it.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I don't have any measurement data on these other DACs or clocks.
"What happens with the computer clock (MacMini) when connected via USB to the ODSE? Does the ODSE clock override the Mac's?"
Yes, the USB interface clock in the ODSE overrides the Mac clock.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
USB has an embedded clock, just like S/PDIF. It is used in Async interfaces only to capture the data. It is then reclocked to the S/PDIF or I2S interface. Backchannel handshake insures there is no overrun.
March availability of SX is about right.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"He was telling me that USB sucks as a connection and that AES is the best if you find a DAC that has it and that their 5k unit uses a BNC s/p diff connection."
USB sucks if the design is poor, just like anything else that is poorly designed.
"He said that any DAC is DSD capable with some program from JRiver and that it's marketing BS saying a dad is DSD capable ( believe that's how he put it)."
Jriver can convert DSD to PCM for the non-DSD DAC, but there are DACs that are truly DSD capable, and double DSD.
"I don't want to go back and reread this whole thread so my question is where do we stand on DACS under 5k?"
Favorites are Bryston, Sony HA series, Metrum Hex, Resonnesence.
"What about what the Baetis guy told me? He also said that digital cables make a HUGE difference compared to analog and I fully believe cables are huge and always have heard a big difference."
S/PDIF, AES and USB cables all make a big difference.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Another DAC to consider is the Chord. Even the Qute with my Dynamo power supply and Short-Block USB filter is really great sounding.
As for digital interfaces, the problem with USB is variability with the computer software. I think there will be less of this reliance on the computer and S/W with Ethernet renderers. This is why I have designed a renderer that is interchangeable with my USB interface in any of my products, called "Interchange". Availability summer 2014.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Paul79 - I generally build my AES cables from a Belden cable that is 110 ohms. If you wanted to try one, I could build one for you. Cost is $150 for 4 footer. Email me.
Thanks,
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
CT - check Audiogon for Overdrive SX. A customer is selling his to upgrade to SX, even though its not available yet.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Steve, can you state more information regarding this unit that will be able to be used with any of your products?"
Yes, it can be put inside the Off-Ramp or the Overdrive.
"Would a user need to send the unit to you to replace the USB card for an Ethernet card?"
Yes.
"Or is this a separate external unit, Like a Ethernet to I2S?"
No, its a module that replaces the USB module.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
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The Ethernet interface plugs to any router or switch on the LAN, just like the computer connects wired.
The XMOS interface is still under debug. Latest version being tested tomorrow.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Dagogo review of the ODSE just out:
http://dagogo.com/empirical-audio-overdrive-se-usb-dacpredac-review
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
My Interchange renderer will do the same thing and be priced in the $1500 range. It will have I2S, AES and S/PDIF coax outputs just like the Off-Ramp. It can be upgraded with my Dynamo power supply for $699. Available this summer.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
The problem with USB is two-fold:
1) common-mode noise on the cable that is not completely rejected by the USB receiver
2) poor software on the server device
#1 can be mitigated with filters or galvanic isolation. I have done both.
#2 can be mitigated by using a Linux-based server properly configured with good playback software and CODECs
Short of doing both of these, you will have some sonic issues with USB
If you do both, it will be identical in performance to Ethernet renderer, assuming both are implemented similarly. Implementation is everything.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Audiolab - No plans to build a streamer. I have other projects on my plate right now.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
AL - It is certainly possible to build such a server/DAC, but good SQ is expensive. Lots of isolation and separate power supplies required.
I'm not in the computer assembly business. I think my new Ethernet interface goes a long way to make the server a non-issue.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Streamers used with USB or S/PDIF outs should be Linux-based, not Windows IME. The difference in SQ between FLAC and wav goes away with Linux and a good CODEC.
The big advantage of USB out is that you don't rely on the clock in the server.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mitch2 - I have no experience playing AIFF with Antipodes, only Mac Mini. It is just as bad as ALAC on a Mini. Like listening through a tunnel IME.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mrpaul - if you are using the S/PDIF output on the Antipodes, changing to USB out and a good DAC interface will make all the difference. The Antipodes will sound entirely different. If you have the latest power supply upgrades, it will be really good.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mitch2 - the only thing I can recommend in your situation is the Off-Ramp 5 USB converter/Dynamo power supply and my BNC-BNC cable driving the Hex S/PDIF input. These together cost $2318.00. Just the OR5 would probably improve things though at $1299.00. Money back guarantee on all, less shipping.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
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Mitch2 - yes, the improvement is the lower jitter master clock in the OR5.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - depends on the server. My Mac Mini beats practically every server except for the Antipodes.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
4orreal - I cannot list them here. I do business with some of these guys. Basically all PC-based servers I have heard and most Linux ones.
Thanks,
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mitch - as I said before, it is a good USB interface that makes the Antipodes rise above everything else.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mitch - a good USB interface requires special attention to power supply, power delivery, ground-plane integrity, impedance matching, logic family choice, clock oscillator choice, minimal gate-level design and of course implementation of the circuit board. These are all design skills that are not taught in college.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"The Antipodes is Unix based, while the CAT is Windows based. Any advantages to either?"
As I said before, the only OS that will give you the sams SQ for wav and FLAC is Linux.
"Also, couldn't Mitch simply use your Short Block to sever the USB power to his DAC? Or do you feel that the off-ramp is also needed to significantly improve his USB input stage?"
Short Block may improve things for him, but it will not reduce jitter to really low levels like the Off-Ramp.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
CT - Remote can be found by searching iTunes store for apps through iTunes.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
The best Hard Disks are Maxtor, and server-grade.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
For those reading this thread, the OR6 that Truaudiofile has is a prototype. He is using it with a Dynamo supply and a Power Block USB supply.
Evidently the Hi-Res problems that I had with it are not being experienced by him. He is using a TotalDAC USB cable and I think that is the difference. None of my usual USB cables seem to work well at 176 and 192.
I think I need to improve the USB receiver robustness before OR6 is ready for prime-time. I cannot expect every customer to use a TotalDAC cable....
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"I'm assuming the OR6 tech is integrated into the ODSX Diamond. Are you considering using the Dynamo supply and power block usb supply for the ODSX as well?"
Yes, that is the plan. The Dynamo is not needed, but the Power Block improves things.
"If we use the TotalDac usb cable, is it necessary/compatible to use the Short Block with it?"
No, it works alone. Turns out that other cables work fine afterall. Its something that I am doing....
"How goes ODSX progress?"
I have one breaking in on the bench with Jupiter caps. IT will take a few weeks to break in completely.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
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AudioL - the ODSE uses the same volume control. It does not need to get "better" IMO. Already the best out there.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Audiol - it has the same volume control. It has internal jumpers if you need zero volume to be more quiet. I think mute is a better choice if you need it dead quiet. This is a part of the volume technology. it does not go to zero unless you mute.
I have used the ODSE for many years and never needed zero on the volume.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Everyone sick of the snow and rain? If you want to do your part to slow this trend, I recommend that you turn your vehicles engines off when they are parked. If everyone did this, it would eliminate more CO emissions than 2 coal power plants. If we don't have a grass-roots change of these behaviors the weather will just get worse and worse. It should be mandated that all personal vehicles be hybrids for instance. We have mucked with Mother Nature big time and she is letting us know.
By the time we have political will to stop this trend, the salmon runs will die out as will most other critical foods from the sea. The reefs are dying at an alarming rate and the small organisms are declining. Weather disasters will become daily news (they already are actually) and will prevent any world economy from being "normal". Growing regions will fail and crops will have to be relocated, like California. Next thing you know, we will be buying our produce from Canada.
If you believe that global warming cannot possibly be due to man because of all of the cold weather and snow in the east, you don't understand climate.
Okay, I'll get off my soap box now.
Steve N. |
If you are not a climatologist or scientist at NOAA or NASA, then you only know a tiny bit about the subject. These are the experts and it's time we acknowledged that. Believing that there is nothing you can do anyway because you are just one person is a recipe for disaster and the eventual extinction of man. This is not an exaggeration. Global warming is currently the #1 threat to mans existence, as well as many other species on the earth. This is acknowledged by at least 80% of the worlds climate scientists.
Steve N. |
The crazy thing is that the cell-phone is probably responsible for at least 90% of the idling cars in the US today. It never used to be this way. People are just on auto-pilot. They get in their cars, start them up and then proceed to sit there for 15 or 20 minutes looking at their cell-phones or talking on them. Ridiculous, wasteful and hazardous to the earth IMO. Americans (US) are the most wasteful people I have seen on the face of the earth. Sometimes I am ashamed to counted among them.
I practice what I preach too. I don't start my car until I have my seat-belt buckled and everyone is in the car with their belts buckled and I am ready to drive. I am also looking to get an electric car. This will make a significant difference in my carbon fooprint. The majority of the power here is hydroelectric.
Steve N.
Steve N. |
You can get an idea of the impact of just jet aircraft on the atmosphere by studying 9-11. All air traffic was grounded for a few days in the US. In just this few days, the atmosphere changed dramatically and it was measurable.
Unfortunately, the majority of the excess CO2 in the upper atmosphere will take 100 years to dissipate. This evidently changes slowly.
The difference on the earth now compared to two decades ago is that third-world countries are becoming developing countries. This means a lot more power generation, automobiles and more forest being cut down to grow crops and build houses. All contributing to CO2 emissions.
Another thing is that due to the more common droughts, there are a lot more forest fires now than even 10 years ago. I live in a national forest, so I have seen this first-hand. This not only puts more CO2 in the atmosphere, it takes out CO absorbing trees. Many phenomena like this one are causing global warming to accelerate beyond what it would, given only the human caused pollution.
Scientists have models that emulate and simulated the atmosphere. Both of these models show conclusively that our pollution is the major contributor to global warming. Its not just anecdotal evidence of melting ice-caps etc..
I don't use the term climate change. That would be giving in to the republican stance that it is not our doing. Similar to their stance that their policies represent what the vast majority of people in the US want. Try the vast majority of business and big money...
I think the federal government should:
1) mandate only hybrid personal vehicles be built and sold
2) outlaw fireplace use that does not create needed heat
3) shut down coal-fired power plants or convert to NG
4) make the car manufacturers put an automatic shut-off if the vehicle is in park and the outside temp is above 50 degrees F
5) make it illegal to idle your car if it is in park
Obama should be doing these things. The focus entirely on power generation is only half the puzzle.
Steve N. |
Matt - that is probably true, but there are fewer cars per capita and they don't sit in them idling.
Steve N. |
The ODSX diamond is in production. I am building 2 orders now. Some will be built with the Ethernet interface. I am ironing out the last issue with the XMOS interface. I have one built for a customer and testing with the older USB interface right now. Lead-time is around 75 days.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"XMOS USB (which I find better than M2Tech) compared to your external ethernet to I2S converter compared to internal ethernet to I2S direct."
It will be about 3 months before I can do this comparison. I will be out of town starting March 20 for 4-5 weeks.
"What qualities do each brand of caps bring to the table in your SX design? Will you have a few units in possession and be able to directly compare simultaneously?"
I have two ODSX, one with Jupiter and one with Duelund caps that I am running currently. Either the Jupiters have really overblown bass and somewhat recessed highs, or they are not fully broken in yet. They sound great on older 70's tracks that have thin bass, but newer tracks are just over the top.
Ketcham - You are too kind with your kudos, but on the other hand I'm glad somebody finally gets what I'm about.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
The Jupiters and the Duelunds are both copper that I am using. They both have OEM pricing, but the silvers are still really expensive, like $1K each.
If you wanted to get Silver Duelunds in your DAC, it needs 4 at 1.5uFd, lowest voltage available.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
