Matt - I am totally impressed at how you are going about your speaker purchase (and cd/dac audition). You are doing it with class. If I were a dealer, I'd give you the keys to my store (and a nice discount).
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,405 responses Add your response
Heard CH Precision DAC at RMAF. I was very much looking forward to the experience because of the glowing reports I read about it. Unfortunately the system sounded grating and harsh, whithout a hint of what sounds "musical" to my ears. Asked the gent -- I believe that was the US distributor -- if the device was perhaps new out of the box and needed some break-in. I was told in no uncertain terms that the device was sounding exactly as it should... CH Precision products sound right just out of the box and do not require any break-in... And that clearly I do not understand good sound. Left the suite befuddled... Went to visit the MSB folks... Amazing sound of music enveloped me. Go figure! G. |
This also is a very highly regarded R2R Ladder dac, and it uses my fav PCM1704 Multibit dac chips. http://www.ch-precision.com/products/c1 |
Here's a review on one of the mid range models, just look at those discrete Vishay ladder networks, yumm!! http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/totaldac3/1.html |
Mattnshilp "Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" If you want this and have deep pockets then go with one of these discrete ladder dacs, flagship over $40K http://www.totaldac.com/full_totaldac-eng.htm Cheers George |
All, sorry for OT... A couple of months ago I started to play with the High Fidelity CT-1 power cords designed by Rick Schultz in Dallas (TX).... Ah yes, thank you Harve FPlanner2000 for the suggestion. I was somewhat skeptical before connecting the creatures into my system because of the unusual coaxial construction and underlying technology based on abundant application of strong permanent magnets. But to make a long story short, these CT-1 cords are exceptional for all parameters I can think of... What floors me is that they are just the entry level PCs of the High Fidelity line. I have started to post a multi-part review of the CT-1 series at: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1437589292&openusid&zzGuidocorona&4&& Hope to see you all there... Now returning this fine thread to its regularly unscheduled programming *grins!* Guido |
Here are some R2R ladder Mutibit Dac chips, my favourite the PCM1704K PCM51 PCM52 PCM53 PCM54 PCM55 PCM56 PCM58P-eng PCM58P-jap PCM60P PCM63P PCM64P PCM67 PCM69 PCM1700 PCM1701 PCM1702 PCM1704 TDA1540-Signetics TDA1540P TDA1541 TDA1541A-R1-S1 TDA1541A-R1-S1-S2 Here is the link to Vas's Dac chip site for the manufacturers data sheets. http://vasiltech.narod.ru/files/_My_pdf-list.txt Cheers George |
07-21-15: Jh901 It takes time and you have to look at what is using what dac chip. To gain some insight here is the greatest collection of what uses what in CDP and DACs Vasilli has complied a monster list here and you'll get to know which are the Ladder Multibit dacs and which are not. Not everything is there, but you get to know, and draw conclusions from the manufacturers propergander sheets. http://vasiltech.narod.ru/CD-Player-DAC-Transport.htm Cheers George |
Matt, first of all, thank you for this wonderful and very informative thread. I have been following your thread from day one and I must say this is by far the best thread on any audio related forum that I have come across:) Anyway, I don't know if you have heard about Coincident Speaker Technology. Their speakers, although normally associated with low powered tube gear, can also be driven by powerful transistor amplifiers. The floor standing models have 12'' side firing woofers, so are quite narrow in size and flexible in placement. You can place woofers inwards or outwards, it helps eliminate standing waves and can be of benefit in your room. I currently have Antipodes DS Reference, Lampozator, Coincident pre and power amplifiers driving their second from the top floor stander, Total Victory V roughly in the room of the same size as yours, and have absolutely no issues with booming bass. The speakers just disappear, the sound is neutral, but at the same time is very revealing and detailed, the bass is simply amazing. I know, they are rear ported, but side firing woofers may negate the issue in your room. Given the caliber of the speakers you are looking at, I think, you should give their top model, Pure Reference Extreme, a try: http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/Pure-Reference-Extreme.htm. The have separate enclosures for the mids/highs and the woofers, are full range and have simple first order crossovers. Another advantage: having separate enclosures gives additional flexibility for placing them in a room. You can even get stands for mids/high module and place them separately from woofers. |
07-21-15: Jh901 Zanden, CAD, Trinity, Phasure, Red Wine Audio (at one point) are ones I know of... |
07-21-15: Georgelofi I agree George. I think part of the reason people like DSD is that "analog" blunting of the upper frequencies in particular. It is harder (and more $) to go the R2R ladder route. I know Totaldac spends a lot of time and $ in that regards. |
R-2R ladder: MSB DAC V totaldac d1-twelve Which of these other DACs are R2R ladder? Aesthetix Pandora/Romulus APL DSD-S Auralic Vega Berkeley Alpha Reference Boulder 1021 CH Precision C1 Chord DAVE dCS "Ring DAC" EMM Labs DAC2x Empirical Audio Overdrive SE Esoteric Grandioso D1 exaSound e22 Jeff Rowland Aeris Lampizator GG Nagra HD DAC Playback Designs MPS / MPD - 5 PS Audio DirectStream Zanden Model 5000 Appreciated, Josh |
07-20-15: Wisnon So the sense of style did not overcome the bass...:) In other words a non-dedicated room without stands. There are tweaks that work....that's part of my point. |
07-21-15: GeorgelofiAnd much more so for hi rez, as accurate reproduction of 24 bit data requires 256 times greater accuracy in the resistor ladder than the already extremely tight accuracy that is required for 16 bit data. As I mentioned earlier, MSB's accomplishment in applying ladder architecture to hi rez (as well as Totaldac's, as pointed out by Agear) simply amazes me. As I also mentioned, though, MSB's use of a sign-magnitude data format will tend to make measurements of low level resolution look as good as possible, relative to competing approaches, when the test signal is extremely low in level (as it was in their published test results). As always, the proof is in the listening. Regards, -- Al |
Guidocorona if I could chime in while your waiting for Coli's answer. I find with Redbook cd, all the Direct Stream ones I've listened too are too relaxed/smooth and uninvolving, much the same as 1 bit, bitstream, delta sigma and ESS type dacs. You notice this once you've heard a very well implemented R2R Ladder Multibit dac's, they have excitement, drive and boogie factor that doesn't seem to be there with the above. Too bad the manufacturers are trying to phase out R2R Multibit dac's, they are way harder and more expensive for them to make, and they then charge up to 10 x the price for them. Cheers George |
07-20-15: Wisnon I had a set of vintage high Pioneers with a similar driver size to the Isis on Sistrum apprentice stands and it did not overwhelm the room. Either way, Matt needs to hear them. He may not like them.... |
Matt, Mattt, Matt. The Trenner&Freidl Isis is way too much speaker for your room. Its great, but in your small room, the bass will have nowhere to go. It is not a small speaker. I already told you that the bottom ported Heil Kithara is the way to go for you ust of emotional involvement. Midrange and high to die for and VERY decent bass going down to 28hz and refined by bass plate. The other contender would be the Granite stone speakers for Fischer und Fischer ( built by Herr Mudra in Deutschland). Talk about cabinet rigidity...also the best ones use a Heil tweet. For the Lawrence Double Bass, see what it sounds like with the Lite 7...you may be surprised... |
Matt. what a thread. LOVING it more and more. Ive met you and we are in touch and I am shocked at what was posted too. Retailers run their business the way they want to and you haven't strong armed anyone. What they probably want is to win the shoot out since there are so many hits on this thread. As you know, I'm totally with Jeff on this one and only time will tell. The rest of my thoughts will be off line with you, lol. |
Matt, One speakers that I have not heard but intrigues me are the Kudos Audio "Titan T808" speakers, and may be worth investigating. The port design on them is different, and are meant to not cause problems in rooms. I have read great things about the T88, the predecessor to the T808. Good luck with your search. |
With the removal of the carpet my room has been transformed. As long as the speaker is not rear ported I am getting amazing sound! And with my incoming Wing diffusers the room should sound even better. Front and bottom ported speakers work wonderfully and provide deep, tight, multilayered base with no nodal activation or boom. I haven't tried a sealed speaker, but I can't imagine it wouldn't be even easier to place and sound great. |
I wonder how long it will be before there are no dealers. But it will not just be audio dealers. Maybe Best Buys and Targets can survive as might a few car dealerships, but other than grocery and liquor stores, restaurants, and gas stations, mechanics, and pawn shops will be left. I think that there is a real need for an e-magazine that has the space to set up multiple systems and to do listening tests, perhaps even double blind but not the usual "same/different " crap from psychology. Just listening tests on a bigger audience moving from one system to another or with and without a device. |
Matt, No insult intended. You asked for all opinions and you got one more, admittedly contrarian. Thanks for the background on your considerable effort and expense in the search. However, none of this expense accrues toward dealer satisfaction. I wouldn't underestimate the expense of the individual and collective efforts of the dealers. There is hidden cost in carrying inventory, wear and tear during shipping and set-up and tear-down, and the time value of money while the equipment is away. You are obviously a fickle purchaser-- so what else is new in high end audio? My criticism is directed more toward the supply-side: the generally desperate and sorry state of retail salesmanship involved in fronting so much equipment into a home setting in a brute force gamble. Some of this may owe to the retailer failing to properly qualify the sale and the LF room issues-- which appear to render a full-range solution problematic. As brick and mortar retailing declines in scale and in breadth of product lines and inventory, the regional audio shows have emerged as the best opportunities to clarify and focus purchasing decisions. That's not to say that there is no place for home demos, but at an extreme this begins to read more like match.com serial dating. Infinite choice invites infinite regression. |
07-18-15: Mattnshilp The Dukes are monsters and too much speaker for r room. I "think" the Isis would provide plenty of bass and dynamics (from wha tI have read....) Are you sure your room is too small for horns? |
Matt I applaud your efforts in this search to find a world class speaker that works in your room and is emotionally engaging to you. After all thats all that really matters. I think your totally in line with your approach to this purchase and was insulted too with the other comment suggesting otherwise. I have done some of the same exhaustive due diligience to achieve my end goal. With the room node issues you mention I believe the Vandy Sevens give you the room tuning ability that no other speaker on your list of for that matter few in the world give you. With the issues you have been mentioning with your room this can't be overlooked as a VERY important factor in your final decision. Having said that as you know there is nothing like have the Sevens in your room for the audition. I would ask John to bring them over to you house for an audition and let me do his magic and set them up properly with the setting adjustments. I assume you have spent as much time and attention to making your whole system component choices and cables etc. so you want to know how the Sevens will sound at home. In my case I liked the Sevens at John's shop but am blown away by the sound of them in my room. If most of the other speakers you are deciding between have been in your room you need to have the Sevens there too. I know John will bring them over I already spoke to him about it for you. With your system in your room and tuned to your room and to your tastes I will be shocked if you don't fall in love with them and won't be able to stop listening to them. Jeff |
I actually take offense at that post. And I've never said that before. I have every intention of buying a speaker if I love it. I have been honest and forthright with every dealer and rep I have spoken with and all know their is a solid potential sale but the competition is tough. Most of the speakers I have heard have just not done it for me. I have paid all freight and moving costs to and from which has already cost me thousands. These speakers range in price from $20k to $100k! The profit potential is massive for practically no effort on the dealers part other then having it avaable and maybe needing to pack it and get it to me. Again, I have paid all freight fees plus I have sent my mover to one store to pick up and return the speaker with them just overseeing. As of right now my top contender is the $80k Coltrane Tenor. For that kind of money I'm going to make damn sure there's nothing better out there for around the same price or less, or even a tad more. There is no pud pulling going on. My investment in freight and moving alone during this search is more then most people spend on their actual speakers. And I spent well over $35k to get the MM3 into my house just so I could hear them. How is that possibly pud pulling?!?!? I flew to Canada, Chicago and California to hear every speaker I could. And I may still fly to Missouri to hear the Vapor and now possibly to Colorado to hear the Arcadias. I will buy when a speaker deserves purchase. To be honest, I have asked naybe an hour or two of time at the most from most of the dealers I've been working with. Profit potential Is in the tens of thousands...... Thanks for your useful post. Sorry to all, you've never in all these posts Sean me go off. But that was just flat out insulting! |
Matt, As much as I admire the thoroughness and exquisiteness of your analysis, I can't help but be astonished that so many dealers have acquiesced in loaning so much high caliber equipment with so little prospect of a return. From a retailer's perspective this is pud-pulling on a grand scale. I hope at least that when the dust finally settles you pay full retail. |
I am always surprised that the BMC Arcadias are not mentioned as outstanding. When I seek to hear the best speakers at CES or other shows, I realize that the demonstration rooms have to be made usable very quickly, that electronics is often quite green, that others are demonstrating nearby and disrupting the demonstration. But I am never even close to impressed. This is further complicated by the lack of demonstrations comparing an amp versus another amp or a speaker versus another. Overall, I can only recall one instance were what I heard at a show totally convinced me that I had to buy a set of speakers. I had to buy the Tidal Contriva Diacera SE. They were ultimately replaced by the Arcadias. I was somewhat impressed by the Arcadias at the RMAF, but they were only prototypes, the room was the usual terrible CES towers room, and it was their bass that most impressed me plus the sound stage they generated. I have owned every type of speaker from compression drivers to ribbons. I think all are compromises. |
Hi all, Merrill just dropped off the most current Bricasti M1 DAC and I was just offered a demo of the Lampy Lite 7 (not sure how that compares to the regular 7 or the Golden Gate). I'm heading out of town for a few days so the review on the M1 will have to wait until I'm back. So here's where I stand with speakers… Boenicke are out. The W8se+ are wonderful but don't give me the low end dynamics and impact that are a must. Hansen Prince E are wonderful speakers and I highly recommend them. They are an absolutely transparent window to the upstream gear. But i found them a tad clean compared to some other speakers I am trying. The low end is wonderful and layered and the highs are extended. The mids are on the lean side and depend on the gear to guide them. I would imagine they would mesh perfectly with a high powered tube amp…. not for me though. My Muzik's are out simply because their rear port is wreaking havoc with my room. This along with 1 other speaker proved that my room, for whatever reason, really requires a bottom or front ported speaker (or sealed enclosure). So they are up for sale. The MM3's I reviewed already and are up for sale. In a bigger room they are absolutely freakin sensational! Just not in my smallish 15x18.5 foot room. Currently comparing the Lawrence Double Bass and the Marten Coltrane Tenor. the Double Bass - I have measured every speaker I tried and they all have had pretty typical curves… A bit of sickout in the 40-65 range and then a tad at 90. several peaks and valleys up until about 16K Hz and then rolled off… The Double Bass is flat in my room. Like impressively flat starting at 24Hz and going to and past 22kHz… They are the most tonally correct speaker i have heard. They reproduce the recording with accuracy, proper tone, pitch, leading and trailing edges and dynamics. What they lack, to me, is emotion. I have been trying desperately to get involved and engaged (I have a killer deal offered to me and I really really want to like these speakers!!!). But every time I listen I find myself analyzing the speakers and rarely really listening… I think, again, that a high powered tube amp would better suite this speakers style. Now to my current favorite, the Marten Coltrane Tenor… The Tenor grabs my heart and won't let go. From the moment the first song is played to the time I tear myself away from my system several hours later. What it does it does just right for me. it is not the most accurate speaker I have heard, nor the most detailed. It softens trailing edges and although never ever boomy, it has a suckout in my room that I am having a hard time correcting (which is fascinating that the Double Bass would not but this does). They are unquestionably a touch colored. A veil over the deeper voice requires a subtle 0.5 to 1.5Hz of gain in between 6 and 12Hz. But with that ever so subtle correction the speakers vanish, and transport (Star Trek style) the performers into my room, and fill the room with engaging, engulfing music. What I find is that the system almost lulls me to sleep with soothing soft music and excites and energizes me when the passage is powerful. I was told that the Double Bass is a better, more accurate, more detailed speaker with finesse and refinement (at less then 1/2 the price). What I hear is that there is a complexity, layering and inner energy that the Tenors have that the Double Bass just doesn't… Unfortunately, the Tenors are super expensive and my demo pair need to be returned in a week. Until I sell everything else I have up for sale I can't even think about buying a speaker that costly. Because of my restriction regarding no rear port my selection is a tad limited. I don't like the sound of Raidho or Magico speakers and I have auditioned many other front and bottom ported speakers what have I not heard or listed… Here's what I have come up with that is bottom or rear ported, sealed and does not require bi-amping. And is small and will fit into my room: Perfect8 - the Point AlkemiaVero Sousonic - Holograph LE Von Schweikert - Unifield 3 mk 2 Vandy - 7 Avalon - Time Vapor Audio - The Joule I think the Schweikert is probably very good but I know it won't give me the low end slam and dynamics that the Tenors did. I have arranged an audition of the Holograph and the AlkemiaVero (both sort of eclectic European speakers) but they won't be ready for 3-4 months. I have to find time to meet with John and hear the Vandy 7's again. But I was admittedly not blown away last time… I loved the Perfect8 The Point's at the show in Newport, but they are crazy expensive and I can't get them into my room for an audition until after I pay for them in full (refundable if I decide I don't want them( Vapor Audio - The Joule intrigues me. It's cheap compared to most of the other speakers on this list. But getting to hear them is nigh impossible other then flying to Missouri for an audition. I may drive about 2 hours to someone who has a pair the model below the pair I'm considering. But I really like hearing what I am going to buy in my room…. That leaves Avalon which are bottom ported and might just be my cup of tea. I am going to drive down to Maryland or Delaware and give them a good listen to see if they are worth considering…. Please chime in with opinions and thoughts in all directions. thanks!!! |
07-14-15: Agear If one has the technical know how and measurement test CD an oscilloscope, it quite simple to do a bleed resistor for a 20hz to 20khz, soldered across left and right output, for a total reduction to 30db channel separation, takes about 10mins to do. And you can make it switchable on the fly. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1398132150&openflup&2078&4#2078 Cheers George |
