Paul79,
I have just received some confirmatory feedback to what you say from a trusted industry participant in the high end of the market:
"I am not a fan of the ecc83 and 12x type tubes as i consider all double triodes flawed by design (two amplification elements are never properly
aligned when used in parallel and crosscouple into each other when used for different channels or amplification stages).
That said, this is the extreme purist point of view.
A well made amp using them in parallel config. can still deliver , even so a similar amp with single stage tubes of comparable design will add more performance on top.
So single element triodes or pentodes come to mind (most state of the art recording consoles of the golden age used pentodes, only later double triodes, as they were cheaper.
I would look for a pre with a minimum number of tubes in signal path and with the best tube power supply. According to my research the more tubes in the signal path, the more "fuzzy haze" .
However, if you use digital only, I would got straight out of the dac into the power amp. If the tube output stage of the dac is properly designed for direct drive, any additional preamp should not be necessary and in fact will
add haze and time- smear to the sound. |
Well my Aesthetix Romulus uses 12ax7 tubes and sounds glorious! Used in gain stage and 6922 as output. Best digital I have owned. |
let's hope you do not say you like 6h30 tubes, LOL!, those are the worst sounding tubes, I do not like any russian tubes for that matter, always an imeadiate in your face sound with a small sound stage, some may like that sound, garbage tubes to me! |
Thankyou Paul79, I will get in touch soon, great read on the 12ax7/12au7 tubes, so to get an idea of what you like, whats your favorite small signal tube for sound quality? |
The real issue here is that your gear is using a 12AX7 and 12AU7 in the first place. Most of them suck, plain and simple. There are only a few of them that sound good. I know... Broad statement, based on my findings with them. IMO, YMMV...
The Amperex tubes are good, but I find them a tad soft for my tastes. They emphasize the midrange, particularly the upper midrange more, and are softer at the extremes. They have great presence, image well, but this could easily tip the balance of your system.
I'd go for regular Mullard tubes before Amperex myself. They at least get the balance right.
The only other 12AX7 besides the 10m I would consider is a 5751. GE and RCA would be my top pics. Either grey or black plate, 2 mica or triple mica. They are all about the same to me, but really good nonetheless. These don't last as long, but will give much of the 10M performance for less dough. They also do not work well in all gear that requires a 12AX7. They will either work wonderfully or not. Bottom line, the 5751 is a fantastic tube, if it works well in your gear.
12AU7 tubes, with a couple acceptions, suck. Just not a very linear sounding tube. The 7318 stands well above them all. I'll even say that the 7318 is one of the best small signal tubes you can use. If one has the headroom on heater current, your closest alternative would be a 12BH7 or ECC99. These will tax most gear though as they draw double the current, or more, that the 12AU7 does. With these big plate tubes, good luck finding some quiet ones also.
I like linearity, speed, big dynamic contrasts, focus, 3D holographic imaging, bass slam, and vibrancy. No glare, spit, graininess, or flab. Simply put, I want it crystal clear and like live music. Well, like I envision live music should be at least ;)
The 10M 12AX7 and CBS 7318 really nail this better than any other of these I have tried, and they translate the same to every piece of gear I have tried them in that uses 12AX7/12AU7's. They just so happen to be very tough long lasting tubes that are very rare and pricey. Damn the luck :)
Best thing? Find gear that does not use a 12AX7 or a 12AU7. Lots of better tubes out there that are much cheaper than the best 12AX7/12AU7. How's that? |
Sigh, OK go buy Amperex. You need to find out the hard way. |
Let me ineterate what i am saying here, if there was a supply to last the next 10 years of the Mullard 10m tubes, I would pay the asking price for them, now from what i understand, a good all around transparent 12au7 or 12aux7 tube is the Amprex tubes, maybe some 5818 tubes?, something like that, Ralph of Atmasphere was telling me about some Amperex tubes that was not bugle boys, but better. |
Tungram ecc82
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-TUNGSRAM-ECC82-12AU7-UNUSED-NOS-TUBES-TESTED-ON-AMPLITREX-/151396831739?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item233ff451fb |
Rja, Really?,$1,000.00 for a pair, this does not seem feasable,considering If I paid that for the 10m's, I would not be able to find more, and I really do not believe any pair of tubes is worth that kind of money!, cheers. |
Audiolabyrinth, You can find the 10M's but paying for them is another matter. $1000 or more for a pair is definitely getting up there especially if they're a little tired. |
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I have to agree on the 7318 nothing touches them . The only problem is finding them good luck . I would love to find a pair . |
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-RFT-NOS-NIB-12au7-ECC82-tubes-Test-NOS-/171018893946?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27d1853a7a
The secret is getting out... |
Run, dont walk and get this pair. LoL |
12AU7….is that the ECC82?
If so, I agree the Mullards are great and failing that, get Tungsram, Tesla, or Phillips (not miniwatt). This is what my experienced friend told me…he tried them all for decades. |
Gentleman, the funny thing here is that BOTH the Mullard 10m tubes and CBS 7318 are very incerdibly difficult to find period!, I have spent the better half of all day talking to vendors of tubes, these tubes mentioned here are RARE, cheers. |
Audiolabyrinth,
If the 5814 will not work in your player, the 12BH7 surely will not. It draws exactly double the heater current that the 12AU7 does.
I seriously doubt that the 5814 will do any harm to your situation. It only draws a fraction more heater current than a normal 12AU7.
To answer, the 10M 12AX7 is far and away my favorite 12AX7. Smokes the Telefunken for sure. They are pricey also though...
Some of the better 5751 tubes will compete sonically, but I have found no better 12AX7 than the 10M Mullard. Very 3D, extended, with deep powerful bass. Also not as overly warm as the typical Mullards.
Another great tube is the 1950's version of the GE Black Plate 5751's. This tube gets damn close to the 10M, but they don't last near as long.
The 7318 is the best 12AU7 I have tried. Beats 12BH7, ECC99, or any other brand or variant you can think of. It is very special, and yes, it is big on tone, just like the 6SN7.
Cheers! |
You CAN get them. As stated before, I know where some are. Message me if interested. They are not $1500/pr either.
Your 10M 12AU7 is getting tough to find and is a stellar sounding tube also, so you appreciate the finer tubes. I would have never mentioned it if they were totally unobtainable and cost prohibitive. What's the deal man? :) |
So what's the point of talking about this tube if you can't get it or have to spend 1500 a pair for them. I think I stick with my 10M. |
I have heard that Telefunken tubes are clean and quite but quite "dead" sounding!
Phillips/Siemens/Mullard/Brimar/Valvo/certain Teslas might be better options. In general for the small tubes, I have heard that the W. Europeans are the best choice and for rectifiers, the vintage Americans are the best. This I get from a pal with 25 years experience in tube rolling and he is based in Eastern europe. |
Paul79, Now that I think about it, I believe you are spot on with the kind of sound I am looking for, I have listened to some units with the 6SN7 tubes before, The Big tone tube, If the CBS 7318 sounds similiar, that would be a winner for me, I will message you, any one else got some preferances for tubes that has worked for you? thankyou. |
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Hi Paul79, I have heard of the CBS 5814 Hytron tube for the 12Au7 position, However, Ralph of Atmashere audio said that this tube does not always work here, because it requires more power and possibly could harm a unit, so I kind of took that off my bucket list,I have not heard of the CBS 7318 for the 12AU7 position, very interesting!, you are saying that you prefer the Mullard 10M over the Telefunken tubes for the 12AX7 position?, have any of you listened to the RCA Red Label 12BH7 tubes for the 12AU7 position?, I know Jafox has said that he likes this tube before,cheers. |
Jwm,
You really need to try the CBS 7318. The 10M 12AU7 is a great tube, and would be my 2nd or 3rd choice for a 12AU7, but as I stated, there is no other 12AU7 that will touch the 7318, and I have tried them all, quite literally. This translates to every piece of gear I have tried them in that requires a 12AU7 as well, including phono sections.
Stocks of them depleted before the internet, and this is when they were very popular. That said, there is very little info about them anywhere to speak of, nor can you find any of them for sale. |
Paul79 I use Mullard 12AU7 10M in my preamp and they are my favorite. |
Audiolabyrinth:
For 12AX7, the Mullard 10M are damn hard to beat. Very linear, focused, and dimensional.
12AU7, there is only one that will keep up with the 6SN7, and that is the CBS 7318. This was CBS answer to the audio grade Telefunken ECC802S. Ultra rare. I have tried them all, and this tube works well in any 12AU7 circuit. Nothing comes close.
Either of these tubes last a very long time. I have a set of 10M 12AX7 and CBS 7318's in my amps that have been cooking for over 5 years, and they still test like the day I put them in.
I know where some of the 7318's are, but they are pricey. Message me if interested. |
Is it possible for any low signal tube to have it all?, likly not, It is probably like anything else, A balanceing act?, Grannyring, I enjoy your insight, and I follow your postings, what do you believe that will retain profound bass without looseing it in a tube cd-player, and that will improve the sound stage to come further in the room without being to forward sounding?, keep the bass and treble incredible that I have now, but improve the transparency and presatation of the sound stage?, the tube positions are 12AU7 and 12AX7, and 6Z4 recetifier tube?, any one may chime in please, thankyou to all. |
Thankyou Matt for youe permission for the off topic discussion, great feed back on the ODSE you mentioned as well, that is very good that your impressions of the ODSE are still intact after the loaner unit left and the one you own has taken you back to where you want to be, digital is one of the most difficult challenges to achieve a particular sound to me, so many flavors, most are always missing something, I know this is for your system, and the ODSE may vary on different systems, you did your search right matt, congrats on your ODSE, cheers |
Come on Agear please encourage me.....please. I am buying music and tubes....and a few caps. Stops here. Encourage me:)
Enjoying music more than ever. |
Given that all tubes are sensitive to vibration with some being very sensitive. Users of tube units should be very concerned with vibration control. Probably every tube should be on a separate board with substantial isolation from outside vibrations and dampening of vibrations from the tube itself.
I remember that Tophats glued using Elmers to miniatures helped them greatly. Herbies helped with all tubes that I used them on. But Stillpoints standoffs below the tubes are best. |
I'm going to try to find time this week to give the DSD-S a solid listen to be fair to Alex and give everyone a good idea of my thoughts on it.
The K-01 is done burning Tuesday for the first set of settings also. So hopefully i can report a bt in the coming week - if I evan find time. Its been SO busy... |
09-20-14: Mattnshilp
But you are re-affirming my point about chasing the rabbit with tube rolling. For some, it's the bees knees and their personal route to audio nirvana. I found that it ended up taking away from my enjoyment of the hobby because of my own obsessive need to try everything in every combo....
Some people like to roll tubes and others equipment...:) 09-20-14: Mattnshilp
I can tell you all that with stock tubes, the Big 6 was humbled six ways to Sunday by my ODSE. I can't comment on the Big 7.
A side by side comparison with a standardized transport would have been more elucidating. The offramp is obviously a confounding variable.... Speaking of confounding variables: 09-18-14: Ketcham
I have owned the following dacs and here are my rankings:
1. D5000
2. Empirical Audio Overdrive SE fully loaded with all upgrades.
3. Museatex Bidat
4. Very distant 4th is EMM DAC2x.
Unfortunately a Debussey dCS stack was sold locally before I could a to b it. |
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09-20-14: Geoffkait
Quick interrupt, but doesn't anyone use Herbies tube dampers on their 6SN7 tubes? I am pretty sure there would put be so much bickering about differences in tube types if everyone used Herbies dampers. I am using them on '52 Sylvania 6SN7GTs (Bad Boys) and '42 Tung Sol 5U4G coke bottle rectifier tube. I did in a pre-amp application and found them beneficial..... |
Matt,
Tube rolling is not the beez kneez, but a useful tweak for gear. For the Big 7, you only have a few parameters to change. You can rioll the rectis, but the stock stuff ia already very performant. Then you can roll the output tubes with vintage RCA/Cunningham 45 triodes globes (circa$150 pair), PSVANE WE Replica 101d-L, or 45 triode ST shape ($100 a pair). For the 2A3 lovers they have many rolling options, but some thing they are microphonic.
The consensus is that the 274b will be the best recti and that vintage RCA globe 45s will give the best result, and that the Psvane WE replica sounds very, very decent but YMMV.
Remember this a DHT Dac, so no small tubes allowed! |
Andrew, Grannyring,
That system synergy is essential is indisputable. I have been in this hobby for about 20 years and when I finally got it all together from source to speakers 2 years ago, I am just too scared to change any one component in the chain, including cables and accessories. And so I have not. I have only recently added a media player for hi-res audio. Adding isn't half as stressful as changing, especially if you are just adding to expand your music collection/experience. It would be like adding vinyl to one's music experience and with that, all the analog components that go with vinyl.
As for now, I simply want to forget about the equipment, kick back and be awash in the music, literally. |
Matt I'm totally with you on that. On that speaker thread I brought up the 'system' deal. Everything interacts differently with each other. That's why a thread like this is interesting, but if folks buy what YOU like then they are wasting money. You've been the first to state this. We could put everyone in this thread in your room under the same conditions and there will be a lot of agreement. Some things like decay, attack, coherency etc... will be heard by all (if they are shown what to listen for), however timbre and other traits will be heard differently by everyone. This is why I finally went back to purchasing a total system together and selling off everything else I've purchased over the years. I just realized again, that it's all about matching everything from components, to cables to room to ....you all get the point. Too many folks, spend too much money and are disappointed. I get that many on this board just love the components, but I have always loved the music even more. How many of you guys/gals will play only audiophile tracks on your system? I was never a tube roller, but I've been a tube guy most of my life. I've seen guys spend as much as the amp itself on tubes, when they would have been happier listening wise to just buy the better amp. I guess that would take away from their hobby and search for nirvana though. |
Quick interrupt, but doesn't anyone use Herbies tube dampers on their 6SN7 tubes? I am pretty sure there would put be so much bickering about differences in tube types if everyone used Herbies dampers. I am using them on '52 Sylvania 6SN7GTs (Bad Boys) and '42 Tung Sol 5U4G coke bottle rectifier tube. |
Audiolabyrinth - Not at all.
I'm mid reviews and burn ins. Not much to add.
But you are re-affirming my point about chasing the rabbit with tube rolling. For some, it's the bees knees and their personal route to audio nirvana. I found that it ended up taking away from my enjoyment of the hobby because of my own obsessive need to try everything in every combo....
I can tell you all that with stock tubes, the Big 6 was humbled six ways to Sunday by my ODSE. I can't comment on the Big 7.
With Steve's implementation of the improved USB interface it will take the ODSE up another notch. And now he openly announced his pending uber DAC, the OverDrive SX. I can't wait!!
I'm cooking the DSD-S right now. Wanna give it another week of steady zeros and ones before final review. |
Audiolabyrinth, why not start a thread here or at audiocirclce dealig with this?
I recently got some tube experience about this, for the 12xxx tubes, try the european ecc equivalents...ie phillips/ siemens/mullards/brimar/ Marconi/Tungsram(white labels) . Not Telefunken, which are clean but are dull.
Not electro harmonix, not JJ unless very old. Not any chinese either.
Unfortunately, some of the recommended tubes are expensive online, so be patient.
US tubes rule the roost for rectifiers and 45 triodes. PM me if you need more of my 2nd hand info. I learned all thus only this week doing a deep dive. |
Matt, I appoligize for the off topic post here, However, If you do not mind, I wanted to take advantage of haveing alot of the Audiogon seasoned audiophile in one place! |
Hi Jafox, your last post is how I compaire audio, great recommendation your post is, but I have been doing this along time, and your post is how I do things, funny though, I really do not have much tube exsperience, so your knowledge is most welcome if you care to share?, Thankyou Jafox. |
Sksos1, I admitt, I am afraid to go down what could be an endless Rabit hole of tube rolling!, I love my sound now!, however, I have followed Jafox's post about tubes, so Steve, what do you think about this? I have a 6z4 recetifier tube in the power supply that is vintage American, how or why this came stock in my vincent player is baffled me,it sounds great, the problem with that tube, there is no replacement for tube rolling, so I will have to go back with the same there, but following Jafox's tube exsperience on the threads, I learned from him that a good tube for the 12AU7 tube replacement is or could be the RCA 12BH7 Red Label tubes, or the 12BH7A Black plates tube, and I suppose the Telefunken 12AX7 tube for the 12AX7 tube replacement, unless any one has a better idea for the 12AX7 position?, Steve, I have incredible Bass and treble extention with the stock tubes now, I would be angry if I lost that part of the sound, I have read that some tubes can have you loose bass, My player has only one chinesse tube inside stock, the other tube that came in the player stock is a harmonix tube and then the American 6z4 tube that I do not know who made the tube?, cheers. |
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09-19-14: Grannyring
Now I have to be careful and not mess with it! Also hard to do:) I will beat Joecasey to the punch by saying I am most certain you will do just that! |
Very true Andrew. One change can throw off a system so easy. A tube, wire, capacitor modifications and the like can dramatically change the music. Oh my, the amp speaker relationship so much more so.
I am now buying more music as I finally have great synergy in my room. Not just good at times, but satisfying over and over. Hard to find this sweet spot.
Now I have to be careful and not mess with it! Also hard to do:) |
I ordered the Big 6 with 6SN7 tubes and in my Atmasphere Novacron amps that use 4 x 6SN7 tubes per side, in each location I find different brands sound better with the back two positions making the biggest sonic difference. So listening to 5 or 6 different brands of this tube will take a while, that is after the unit has some time to break-in. |
tube rolling in a Lampi is not that hard…simple change 2 output tubes (matched) and 1 or 2 rectis, depending on the model.
The permutations are limited. |
Jafox, you are very methodical and analytical. Remind me again about your background? Science? Most audiophiles give mental/verbal ascent to this, but behaviorally we are compulsive cream puffs. I think a lot of these dacs (Lampizator or not) can sound good with due diligence. There is a thread on "the best speaker you have ever heard," and someone recently made a comment that the amp-speaker interface was critical. I can make my current speaker sound like rat piss with just an amp change.
This hobby is supremely annoying, and I think I am running out of steam...:| This gives MY WIFE much joy! |
Tube rolling is fun but can take many hours of trial and error and there are so many tubes out there and just because one brand works for you in a particular component doesn't mean it will be the perfect tube in another component. My amps use 16 tubes and my phono unit uses 22 tubes! Still I'd get the power cords set first so you then can hear tube differences easier.
Over the years I've gone from listening to 20 plus brands of ac cords and have finally settled on just 2 brands, what they are doesn't matter but finding the right ones for your system can bring a smile to your face every night. |
ABruce,
You know, i have never heard a L5 Dac...
Only 3-4-6 and 7. |
Steve-Sksos1, congrats on the Lampi Big 6! |
Hi SKsos1, I say exotic power cords do a system profound, if you get the correct match of a power cord, I was lucky enough that I got such a profound match, I believe Jafox about tube rolling, and I will be doing so, However, I would be estatic if it turned out that tube rolling to some really good tubes had the effect he is speaking of, that is why I am wanting his addvice, he must know about some really good tubes to get to better some of the best power cords out there, you think?, I want to find out, I assure you, I am batting for Jafox to win this, much, much more cheaper with best results always wins! |
I find tube rolling can make or break the sound of a component but also find power cords more important than interconnects and or speaker cable. (and more important than tube rolling but both are essential)
I just ordered a week ago a Lampi Big 6 with DSD. I'm told the Big 6 sounds better on redbooks than the Big 7 and since I'm really only interested in redbook this is why I went this route. Although to be honest I listen to 90-95% analog on my Kuzma Stabi XL2 with Kuzma 4Point arm and Kuzma CAR-50 cartridge and as Alex of APL has stated even his Kuzma analog rig sounds better than any digital!
HAPPY LISTENING
Steve
SOS
(Dealer disclaimer) |
