Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

08-16-14: Paul79

The Totaldac is something else IME.

Which unit do you own and what is the rest of your system? Have you considered his server? I too looked at getting one but decided to get a Lampizator instead.

08-16-14: Mattnshilp
Gonna change the subject for a moment since I've got a week'ish until my next report.

I need an opinion.

Matt, last year I was faced with a very similar situation. I had a full range floor stander that was flat to the low 20s in a small, square shaped room. It overdrove the room and was less than desirable. Some big speakers do better than others, and you can get by with a near field setup and possibly consider using bags of play sand as a cheap way to manage energy initially. Dale Pitcher turned me onto this. My next room was a multi-use family space with valued ceilings, a wall of glass on one side, stone fireplace, etc. It sounded better simply due to the fact that the speakers had room to breathe (along with the ceiling height).
Thus I agree with Steve in sticking with the bigger room.

I too have tried computer-based manipulation of room acoustics (ala Spatial computing from Clayton Shaw of Emerald Physics fame) and while somewhat effective, it did not turn my 35K speakers into 100k speakers. I did not chase it that far though. Another friend had professional grade room correction software, and after going through all the trouble of creating a "ruler flat" measuring room, he bailed as it lacked musicality.

I second Steve on his recommendation for large/thick/dense area rugs.... Their beneficial effect can be further enhanced by resting them on top of one or more layers of non-skid latex sheets... Yes, I did use a latex non-skid underpad under a thick woolen rug when I had hardwood in the living room.... Rug was better than naked hardwood, and non-skid pad + rug was better than rug alone.

G.

I suggest a rule for this discussion: No comments whatsoever from Steve or Alex with regard to one another's products. To do so is totally unprofessional.

Matt - if your speakers are large, and you are getting sufficient bass, I would stick with the big room.

Treatments can be attractive, such as the graphics covered side absorbers. They are actually art.

1/4 round tube traps are really just an extension of the speakers and look like furniture too. May people that see mine just think it is more speakers or part of the speakers because they are located right next to the speakers.

One thing that is important though is to eliminate as much of the floor bounce and echoes as possible. Thick, large area rugs work and overstuffed chairs in the room will help.

If you are not already using the EQ features of Amarra, then this is a no-brainer. They will make $20K speakers sound and perform like $100K speakers. The EQ is really easy to use (just see my Computer Audio Info webpages). You will need an audio analyzer hardware and software. I often use my iPad with an analyzer app and a Earthworks M30 mic and preamp. The Mic is around $600 and the preamp is $400. This mic is the reference that most professionals use. There is a compensation file included that makes the response of the mic ruler-flat. See the same webpages for links to this.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Alex - I resent that you are implying that my Overdrive adds coloration. I also have the same exact goals of accuracy and natural liveness and I in fact achieve them.

This was a cheap shot IMO.

Steve N./
Empirical Audio

That's tough... Pretty small room for your speakers. However, I'd be tempted in trying to use the room with the freedom to do as you chose. Even if it means building a second system, or replacing your large speakers with a good full range monitor or good small 2 1/2 way type floor standing speaker, if a second system is not possible.

This will allow you to pull the speakers more into the room vs. being forced to keep them close to the front wall, as well as keeping your listening position away from the back wall. This allows you to set up a more near field type scenario, if you will.

When treating the room, take pointers from those that know. GIK Acoustics is really great at this. They have been given any scenario you can think of to get great results.

Just MO..

Gonna change the subject for a moment since I've got a week'ish until my next report.

I need an opinion.

Is my stereo going to sound better in my current room:
19'x14.5' x 9' tray ceiling, hardwood floors with thin area rug, no acoustic treatment and no permission to ever really use treatments. Speakers on long wall. Glass doors on both side walls.

Or

15'x13'x10' (beamed ceiling - open basement ceiling with exposed support beams). 1 wall is cinder block (a short wall) and 3 are Sheetrock. Thin indoor/outdoor carpet glued to floor. I can do anything I want to anywhere - essentially a dedicated listening room. Can set stereo up any way I want.

Thoughts?

The 19x14.5 room is much bigger. My speakers are big and I'm worried I'll overwhelm the smaller room, even with treatments.

Alex,
Sounds like my kind of DAC.. I'd like to compare your DAC to my Totaldac rig, but we can't all be as cool as Matt ;)

The Totaldac is something else IME. It is extremely raw sounding, meaning whatever and everything that is on the file, is what you get. Explosive dynamics, contrasts from soft to loud are startling, and it fleshes out any performance you throw at it. This DAC also gets the depth and height right. Not only center depth, but far corner depth that goes as far as the recording does. It is as close to the best vinyl rig as I've heard digital get, and really makes the speakers vanish. Perhaps the most non digital sounding DAC?

Nice write up also Matt. Tells allot about your system and tastes, and glad you found your home with the ODSE. Steve has been working on that one for a long time, and sounds like it has really blossomed into something special.

I also can't help but wonder what a more dynamically capable source would bring to the outcome of these comparisons. This is a very important part of the chain.

Cheers!

Matt, thank you for taking the time evaluating the DSD-S!

You are absolutely correct when you said: "it is about accuracy and presence".

Though I understand that certain coloration would be favorable in some audio systems, this is something you will not find with my designs.

I prefer linearity, naturalness and superb extension, while preserving the free-flowing ease of pure analog, and without a sign of digital glare. To make sure this is the case, I am recording from my reference Kuzma vinyl rig and then A-B against the digital using both DSD and PCM formats.

Below is a link to a short video clip made by a visitor at the Sofia Expo 2013 using his digital camcorder. It is not a great recording and also MP3 quality, but it may give an idea about my audio system tonal balance:

Video clip at Sofia Expo 2013 link

Thanks again!

Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Sorry Tboooe. Nothing yet. No time.
Room is really hard to address.

Matt, any additional feedback on those Stillpoints Apertures acoustic panels? I recently installed some RealTraps Mondo Bass Traps and have been floored by the improvement in sound!

Correct.
I tried direct last time and much preferred running through my (your) Criterion.

Thank you Matt for your ever-thoughtful observations... Am I correct to assume that you did not go directly from DSD-S into the Veritas, but you had your Criterion line-stage in the chain instead?

Guido

UPDATE:

I finally got some listening time in…

I have been running the ODSE via usb off the computer to burn it in. I actually bought an inexpensive CD player with spdif out to burn in the DSD-S simultaneously. So both have been running non-stop since last Wed when I last posted. That's 216 hours additional. The DSD-S had about 468 last I posted. So its now at 684 hours; I would assume its nicely burnt in by now. The ODSE is just warming up with its first steps of 216 hours.

I reconnected the DSD-S to the usb and used my cables as always, no change in the rest of the system. For those curious, I have not yet set up any acoustic treatments, so no change their. Consistency is key!

I ran it DSD64 and DSD128. Overall, the extra hours clearly made a difference. That quirky imaging shift I mentioned before seams to be gone (that was SO weird) and the DAC really matured in many ways, like leaving a wine out to breath. I will say, definitively, that if I had to keep the DSD-S forever and never be allowed to buy another DAC, I would have no problem with that. It is that good. The overall sonic signature was the same as what I described last time. But the listening position has actually come up a bit more, and the definition of instruments in space and sonically has become more present, more lifelike.

DSD64 and 128 were hard to define, and subtle. In essence, the DSD64 created a broader sense of presence and warmth and the DSD128 was like turning the sharpness up on a TV. I preferred the 64 on vocals, jazz, blues and rock music while I liked the 128 when listening to classical. Its a push and change scenario, so you can do it on the fly; which is nice. I popped back and forth to fine tune each song. Cant say more then that really. It was nice to have it, i guess. Although I spent part of each of my listening moments deciding if I liked 64 or 128 better (which distracted me from enjoying the moment). If I was forced to, I would probably leave it on DSD128 most of the time. But its easy enough to switch that its truly switch as desired; there are buttons right on the remote to go from one to the other.

The DSD-S has a sense of accuracy and presence that is its sonic signature. Polar opposite of the Lampy. Tube lovers would need to run this guy through a tube pre-amp and amp to "warm" it up. Again, those who prefer the sound of the Meitner. and to a lesser extent the DirectStream should email Alex asap and set up an audition. I think the PS Audio Direct Stream is 70 of the DAC that the DSD-S is. Which is about right if you look at the price…

I did listen to hi-res and DSD on the DSD-S and it was wonderful! Truly wonderful! Enough to motivate me to look into it further when music I am looking for is available in that format. But I have nothing to compare it with, and thus leave that evaluation to another.

I did swap in his PC at one point, just to see since Alex asked. Again, no huge difference although the base clearly was more defined and was a tad more impactful with my more expensive Zitron PC. The noise floor also dropped noticeably with the Zitron. I have all Shunyata Zitron cables, and the affect is cumulative. So for me to truly veal his PC would take a LOT of time and effort… For what it is, its very good, and VERY flexible, which I liked a lot!

I did not listen to his USB - sorry Alex.

I listened exclusively this time with the 2.6 Version of Amarra, which I am very familiar with. I tried the Audirvana for Hi-Rez, and with my red book listening list very briefly. The Amarra/Audirvana differences are subtle and not dramatic enough for me to justify changing a software variable during my listening session.

I then hooked the ODSE back in and gave it a listen just to see. It's young and immature, but the ODSE magic was there. I assure you all that the DSD-S is an exceptonal DAC, but in my system the ODSE shines. It was that obvious, that quickly. There is some type of synergy between every part of my system, including the room, that makes the gear and accessories I currently have work together to make a whole that is greater then its parts.

I am left only to offer a heartfelt thank you to Alex for giving me the opportunity to listen to his wonderful DAC and the chance to tell you all about it. With the right system it is an unequivocal winner!

So, what now?

I will continue to burn in my ODSE and compare (next Wednesday if I can) the new Amarra 3.0 software and the Audirvana software with the ODSE as I am VERY curious to see if there are any differences.

I await a call from John about the Romulus. And I will try to convince someone to send me or lend me a Lampy 7 and an Allnic DAC. No rush on either.

In the off time, I will actually listen to music and enjoy my system. I think thats what I am supposed to do….

Steve is working on an upgrade for the ODSE to use the XMOS USB converter chip, which he says makes a big difference. Can't wait to hear that…

'fin

TBG, now I am lost for words, impressed with views of your thread, congrats TBG, and they say that High-end is a minority for people under 40 years old, I do not think so, I believe there are more audiophiles out there than what we are led to believe.

Apologies all. Work has been crazy. Wed didn't really happen. At least, not the way I wanted it to.

I am hoping to get some time tomorrow to eval the DSD-s and it's 128 and 64 setting. And maybe to compare it to my ODSE. Comparing the USB cable and power cords is not going to happen (sorry Alex); I just don't have the time. Nor is a comparison between Audirvana and Amarra, at least not until next week.

I'll post tomorrow if I get some listening time.

Sorry for the paucity of pertinent posts.

Cool.
I would imagine there are many threads with WAY more views. I just think it's cool.

Matt, although it is nowhere near as constructive, I have a thread with 5,500,782 views. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1059180366&openmine&zzTbg&4&5#Tbg

"That was no typo. This dac was designed for a dedicated and chosen few with true zeal and audio endurance to scale this Mount Everest of digital reproduction."

Love your zeal Agear, 30,000 hrs of breakin? Truly designed for the full time listener or do you have the ability to move at warp speed to the future? Very amusing post man, I LOVE your passion! You MUST be the quintessential audiophile.

Matt, you busy?, whats cooking with the dacs, whats coming up for a report?

I did not know some sacd's cannot be ripped, why is that?

I have an Esoteric K-01. Love it! The reason I bought it was it can be a great DAC for computer playback AND a great disc spinner. I have a lot of SACD's that cannot be ripped so the player is essential.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program (please!)

They were the pioneer cs- 901, these were out before pioneer came to america by a couple of months, I believe I sold them last year after I played with them for 6 months laughing at them trying to play music, I thought to myself, man, has audio speakers come along way!, LoL!

What about the 1973 pioneer Kabucki home stereo speakers, I owned some before, mint condition, sounded like crap, sold them to a vintage speaker collector for good money!, I'm not kidding a bit about this one, cheers.

Dang, I HEARD about that stock Pioneer DVD player...da bomb! LoL

Very funny Agear, awesome since of humor.

08-12-14: Joecasey
What's the rest of your system?

As you might expect, its formidable:

I have a dedicated listening in my parents basement that is approximately 13x 15 x 7 ft. Walls are cinderblock. Floors are concrete with a single shag rug, a wooden chair, and one naked lightbulb. In addition to my L7, I am running an unmodded Pioneer 535 DVD player as a transport, a highly modded Sansui AU-517 integrated that is the envy of my local audio society, and a pair vintage Pioneer CS-911As slung together with home depot grade zip cord and no-name ICs. I like to crank it to 100 dB and above for dedicated listening late at night, but the neighbors will often call the police. I have been told that you can hear from system from blocks away on a still night. This makes me proud and is honestly why I am in the hobby....

Fxxxxxx incredible!, Matt, that is the most views I have ever seen, you need to work for a cable brand or something, you know how to talk to folks and keep their interest, Your hired!, congrats matt for a successful thread, I enjoy it, thankyou for your reply, that number is Awsome to say the least, cheers to matt everyone!

08-11-14: Agear
08-11-14: Erikminer
30,000 hours to break in.. gotta be typo that's more than 3 freakin' years!
Erikminer (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

That was no typo. This dac was designed for a dedicated and chosen few with true zeal and audio endurance to scale this Mount Everest of digital reproduction.

What's the rest of your system?

Agear...love it!

63,097 views

matt, what is the view count now?, your last report was amazing!

08-11-14: Wisnon
Granny, this is not your Daddy's Lampi!!!

Lukasz took it to another level. i am not joking when I say I am jealous.
Find a way to audition one, even for the fun of it. You will be amused.

Don't give him any ideas. With the smoke coming out of his ears, I'll give him 2 months now and he will be singing, so relaxing ripping cds ... LOL!!!

Granny, this is not your Daddy's Lampi!!!

Lukasz took it to another level. i am not joking when I say I am jealous.
Find a way to audition one, even for the fun of it. You will be amused.

Agear, please let us know some initial impressions after 10,000 hours.

Thanks much.

Big7 is more like $11K retail, not $22K.

My L4 is still burning in after 20Khours…LoL, that is it keeps getting better with age.

Seriously, Lampis sound great after just 3 days burn in and keep getting better long after that.

I have heard the Big7 3 weeks ago in NYC and am officially jealous. AGear you da man.

08-11-14: Erikminer
30,000 hours to break in.. gotta be typo that's more than 3 freakin' years!
Erikminer (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

That was no typo. This dac was designed for a dedicated and chosen few with true zeal and audio endurance to scale this Mount Everest of digital reproduction.

Agear, if that was a joke then it was freakin awesome! I actually really laughed out loud. Very well delivered!

I can honestly say that $22-25K for a DAC is out of my price range.

30,000 hours to break in.. gotta be typo that's more than 3 freakin' years!

Just to clarify my previous post on the cost of the Vitus SCD-025, the 16,500 quoted was specified in GBP (British Pounds, not Euros.)

Melbguy1, I converted the $16,500 Euros to u.s. dollars, Thanks for the complete correction of the full retail of the SCD-025, cheers

Thanks Grannyring, I enjoy your post too, your post was a valid answer for sure.

08-11-14: Mattnshilp
Thanks Melbguy1, for bringing up a nice option. I'm sure some readers will definitely look into the SCD-025 with your suggestion. What is the retail?

08-11-14: Bill_k
Matt - I couldn't find confirmed US pricing but the SCD-025 sells for £16,500 in the UK which converts to ~$27,700 US.

YW Matt, here is a link to the VA price list in Euro's (current as at July, 2014); http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEEQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dptrade.it%2Flistini%2Flistino_vitusaudio.pdf&ei=tA3pU-ijCpa48gWZ8YKABg&usg=AFQjCNEqxRO7wHh4QqYA59FfbJjhTT8gPg&bvm=bv.72676100,d.dGc&cad=rja. The SCD-025 is currently $19,000EUR with VAT which equates to around $25,500USD. The SCD-025 is currently the Signature Series dac. As Hans recently told me, they designed the SCD-025 essentially as a full Signature Series dac with a drive, albeit a heavily modified Phillips Pro 2 LF! And its fully modular architecture also permits the player to be converted to a Signature Series dac (minus drive) if VA release such a product in future, and indeed it has been designed with this possibility in mind. Also should updated modules become available in future, the player can be updated in the field by a competent audio engineer.

Btw, the earlier mentioned Vitus RD-100 is an absolutely terrific bargain at $9,500EUR (approx $12,713USD). It has true analogue inputs (no conversion to digital) and Vitus's relay-based volume control. It is also designed with a modular architecture like the Signature Series making it future proof.

correction, The Vitus SCD-025 Retail Euros converted to u.s. dolars is still alot of money, u.s. $22,083.92, cheers.

Hi Matt. First I would like to add my thanks and appreciation for your very interesting and enjoyable thread.

FYI. The Meitner MA-1 has no VC so it can only be run direct to amp by using a software-VC in a Sever Software, like A+. Also by using the VC in the Server software you would only be able to control the volume of PCM files and not DSD.

Speaking of the Meitner MA-1 (and all EMM/Meitner) they have just announced the release of a free Major Firmware Upgrade.
I had the opportunity to get an early release for my MA-1. I can say that the difference was well worth the wait and the improvements in sound are across the board and urge you to try an updated MA-1. Please keep in mind that there will be another Upgrade coming this Fall-Winter.

On a side note. As we both have the Veritas Amps I wanted to let you know that I asked Merrill to put the new Red Fuses by Synergistic Research into my Veritas Amps. I highly recommend them for the price vs performance to anyone. They add a refinement to the Veritas, it elevates them, not that they lacked for anything before. It is not hard to hear the added benefits it brings, more then subtle. I must say that this is the first fuse I have heard that it was not hard, if at all, to hear the differences/improvement.

Matt - the volume control is just the nature of the beast. It never goes completely to zero due to the technology used. There are internal jumpers that will get you closer though. I like it set the way it is because I don't want the volume to go up 12dB with only 10 degrees of knob rotation. I don't think its really an issue for you because you are using your preamp anyway.

Steve N.

Guido - its very simple. The D/A chip I use allows selection of three digital filters, one tuned for 44.1, one tuned for 96 and one tuned for 192. You can manually select these. The de-emphasis is standard on most DAC's but like the other filters, its automatically selected. On the Overdrive, you can manually select this filter as well. I have found it to be useful on a few older tracks, such as some Led Zeppelin and some Jimi Hendricks. If it sounds harsh and bright, sometimes it is because it has pre-emphasis.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

One benefit of the mini is that you have a lot of choices about which software to use and how you implement memory play, upsampling, eq, etc.

IMO, too many options is the reason why so many tech challenged is having trouble with computer audio and reason Steve recommended Antipodes.