Are future improvements in Amp/PreAmps slowing to a crawl?
kosst Why would I want to be one of those guys? They are stuck in conventional world. I have something far more creative. I always think outside the box. In a little while they are going to wish they were me. Besides those guys and the others you did not name are running just a few years behind me right now. I'm the happy camper. |
@roger_paul Nobody. Believes. You. I don't even believe you're employment claims. Even if I did I wouldn't be impressed. My best friend has a much more impressive resume. Even in you're rage-filled rant, claiming your "proof" and your "expert" status, you still have provided no actual evidence. "Hear is a bold statement - I am the expert in this field. Period." And what field is that? Amps? I don't think so. You have a confused idea that doesn't withstand any scrutiny and you're most definitely the expert in that field. Yeah, I did build an F5 clone. That hardly makes me an expert and I'm more than happy to admit that. At the same time, I know what I built and why it works the way it does and I'm doing my best to better understand the nuances of Nelson's designs because they reflect a deep understanding of the art. Nothing you've said reflects understanding. There's nothing to learn from you. You'll never be a Pass or Levinson or Colburn. You can't even prove your claims. |
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@roger_paul There’s nothing to find out because you’re a liar, quite possibly a thief of intellectual property, and not producing something of terribly high regard. You have no reputation so great that your word alone is enough to make your silly claims believable. I know for a fact that your silly claims and meaningless explanations strike people as absurd and fictitious. People who know something realize real quick you don’t make any sort of sense. I’ll eat my shorts the day I see Stereophile review one of your jokes. JA would rip you and your gear apart. For crying out loud, Roger! What little you do say spec-wise isn’t even impressive. What the hell is "near zero" harmonic distortion? .005%? .0005%? 5Hz-50kHz +0/-3db? Am I supposed to be blown away by that? A 100wpc amp that weighs 35 pounds??? That’s gotta be class D to make that kind of power with such a flimsy weight. You either have a joke for a power supply or need no heatsinks. My bet is both. It’s probably got an SMPS and a pile of class D modules from somewhere. That’s probably why you can’t say anything that makes sense about the amplification circuit. You don’t even know what it is. I’ll also bet that these advances you speak of have nothing to do with distortion. You’re probably just finding better ways to manipulate and filter out the noise. And that Stereo Times review... Aside from the fact I’ve never even heard of it, I went and looked up his claims that your amp earned a Golden Ear award from TAS. No, it did not. Yet another liar! Anyone out there surprised??? BS and lies, Roger. Verbal smoke and mirrors intended to fool the layman. And THAT is what I REALLY don’t like. There’s no reason whatsoever to believe your claims, your products is highly suspect simply based on it’s appearance and weight, and you invent elaborate, mythical, nonsensical explanations to bolster claims you cannot substantiate in the slightest. SNAKE OIL. You’ve got nothing but snake oil. |
@roger_paul Look. I know you're going to say something dumb or just make up some crap that makes zero sense. You are very confused about several things and you lack a grasp on some very basic tenants of electronics. You refuse to acknowledge the well proven mechanisms of nonlinear gain and substitute your unproven theories. Without measurements, a viable theory, or a schematic you're claims should be strongly doubted. I honestly wonder if you're not ripping off somebody else's work and hocking it as your own. There's no way you're designing amps really worth $10,000 with the understanding you exhibit. You can't even identity propagation delay. |
kosst, You see - all forms of distortion start off as phase shift or timing issues."I'm amazed every time I mention something you seem to see it from the wrong angle or something. I'm not trying to be difficult but let me clarify what I mean. in particular.. ...does not mean that the phase shift causes it.Just the opposite - the distortion caused the phase shift - not the other way around. When I say I'm tightly monitoring the phase of the fundamental - I am watching for the first sign that something has gone wrong. That is the canary in the coal mine. By stopping the phase shift - you have cut off any means of generating harmonics. |
stfoth http://tenoraudio.com/pedigree/the-perfect-amplifier-.html http://tenoraudio.com/technical/zero-perceived-distortion--.html a different approach on "perfect." >>>>>footnote on history. I was in the big Tenor/Rockport/Shunyata/Audio Aero exhibit in the brand new Tuscany Hotel. The room was 50x50. It was judged by most senior audiophiles and reviewers to be the best sound of show. It was judged by senior reviewer and author of the RCA Bible Jonathan Valin to be not only the best sound at the show but the best sound he had ever heard anywhere. What was your humble scribe doing in this monster system? I was providing vibration isolation stands for all four (4) count em Tenor Amos as well as the Audio Aero CD Player. A customer of mine knew the exhibit coordinator, Jonathan Tinn. Yeah, Baby! |
stfoth, re: zero-perceived-distortion link...
What little distortion Tenor amplifiers have is now effortlessly and subconciously ignored by the brainstfoth a different approach on "perfect." Yes it is different but not correct and apparently not zero distortion. |
@roger_paul "News flash - As a matter of fact I have. You see - all forms of distortion start off as phase shift or timing issues." WRONG. Just because a distortion wave form appears slightly phase shifted from the fundamental does not mean that the phase shift causes it. Inductance, capacitance, and resistance inside the transistor itself causes nonlinearity. The important mechanism of these passive characteristics is energy absorbsion and emission, be it from the input signal, the power source, or the output waveform. There is no law that says this must happen in perfect phase with the fundamental. The phase is a result of the mechanism of distortion as much as the distortion itself. The phase is in no way the cause. "I use a form of feedback that involves shifting phase by micro-degrees at a particular location in the circuit that will allow this type of correction to be effective in stopping distortion from happening. This type of "feedback" is 1000 times the potency of classic negative feedback which we know does not work." You do not. Negative feedback isn't some fixed value. It's a portion of the gain. The best you could do is pipe the full gain of the amplifier into feedback. That doesn't make a very effective amp though. You can't make the feedback greater than the gain of the amp unless you're going to do something crazy-stupid like amplify the feedback itself. Of course, if you did do that, you're digging into that whole can of worms with inherently nonlinear gain devices which doesn't solve your problems at all. You just don't seem to have any grasp on the facts and theories at work here, Roger. Just admit it. |
http://tenoraudio.com/pedigree/the-perfect-amplifier-.html http://tenoraudio.com/technical/zero-perceived-distortion--.html a different approach on "perfect." |
stfoth ...are all issues directly related to harmonics?NO - All issues are related to nonlinearity (NL) which caused the harmonics. Harmonic distortion is one by-product of a NL circuit. Imaging suffers even with the slightest amount of NL A holographic image certainly cannot be maintained in such a circuit. |
kosst, Do you think that after decades of work trying to analyze the tiny events that lead up to the production of harmonics that I'm going to say "Oh I know - I'll just use negative feedback - why didn't I think of this before?" Ok here is a fact: If you see something and react to it and use a countermeasure against it to "fix" it you are applying some form of negative feedback. True. The trick is where do you apply it and to fix what problem? There is no "loop" from output back to the input. I don't monitor voltage fluctuations seen on the vertical axis. I use a form of feedback that involves shifting phase by micro-degrees at a particular location in the circuit that will allow this type of correction to be effective in stopping distortion from happening. This type of "feedback" is 1000 times the potency of classic negative feedback which we know does not work. The Auto-Focus by default could not "automatically" focus anything unless it can detect and react. Classic NFB can only suppress harmonic distortion to lower levels. My circuit "correction method" stops distortion all together. |
kosst, The source of distortion in a gain device is related to deviations in it's transconductance. Deviations in transconductance are, at the very least, the byproducts of capacitance, resistance, and inductance within the transistor itself. They're unavoidable characteristics.The source of distortion is related to ....bla ...bla...bla. You realize that what you are saying is: "The source of distortion is related to the nonlinearity." You are describing what causes the nonlinearity - I am describing how the nonlinearity you have described causes the damage to the signal which as a result produces the harmonic. No matter how the nonlinearity manifests itself - I have a way to deal with it. You have NOT solved all of those problems.News flash - As a matter of fact I have. You see - all forms of distortion start off as phase shift or timing issues. You keep doubling down on the same argument and its not going to get you anywhere. You are digging a deeper hole that you are going to have to climb out of at some point when the truth is made known. This is not wishful thinking or a theory - the circuitry already exists that does EXACTLY what I'm describing and it works perfectly. I know this sounds too good to be true but its true. I told you this would make some people happy and others not so happy. |
@roger_paul What the hell is this nonlinear event you keep babbling about? And how do you arrive at the conclusion that a second order harmonic goes floating around in and out of phase with the fundamental? Harmonics are quite strictly in phase alignment with the fundamental. "By detecting the first sign of distortion (the initial phase shift that starts on its way to becoming a harmonic) and stopping it from going further - you have an amplifier circuit that has no distortion." All you're describing is negative feedback. Welcome to the 19th century. You talk it up to be something far more complicated than it is, but you're just talking about negative feedback. And that makes you a liar because you claim you don't use that. If you're detecting the deviation in gain in the signal, and you built a circuit to compensate for that deviation, you built negative feedback. Good job, Roger. This is why nobody is real impressed. |
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kosst, Can you explain to me how an amplifier can produce energy at 2khz when all it has to work with is the pure 1khz tone applied at the input? If you don't think it is using a modified version of the input to do this then if you stop the 1khz input - does the circuit still continue to produce 2khz energy? No. In fact there are no harmonics anywhere in the spectrum with no input. The 2khz harmonic IS energy from the 1khz signal that has been warped and bent by the nonlinear event. It literally changes the shape if the pure tone (which is not pure any more) into a brief segment of what looks like a 2khz tone. For that tiny moment - that small segment of the input signal has been moved up a FULL OCTAVE. This can be seen by running a tape machine at twice the playback speed. Don't tell me this is not happening - I know for a fact that it is. This is what I have been studying for years. By detecting the first sign of distortion (the initial phase shift that starts on its way to becoming a harmonic) and stopping it from going further - you have an amplifier circuit that has no distortion. |
kosst, Harmonic distortion is caused by nonlinearity in the gain devices. Period.I agree 100% - we know it is caused by nonlinearity I'm not disputing that. I am saying that I know the means by which harmonic distortion is actually generated by the nonlinearity. At any point along the [sign wave] that the gain is increased or decreased you have essentially speeded up or slowed down that segment of the sign wave which makes it appear as a higher or lower frequency. This is the only way that 2khz energy can exit a circuit fed by 1khz. What I'm saying is the actual means for producing the harmonics is directly caused by the damaging effect the a nonlinear event has on a pure 1khz tone. We are on the same page but I can go further and describe the chain of events that ends up with the harmonics. I have studied a kind of slow motion observation of those events in order to place a trap that is triggered by the very first sign that it has come upon a non linear obstacle You can nip it in the bud if you know how to detect that it is starting to distort. The very first thing to go is the phase of the pure tone - this is the birth of a harmonic. My circuit can spot this at such an early point that it can be stopped before it even has left the fundamental frequency of 1khz. The detector can spot a shift in phase of micro-degrees and apply a phase countermeasure that prevents it from continuing shift in phase and ultimately in frequency (as monitored on the spectrum as 2khz) A non linear amplifier produces harmonics by literally manipulating the phase and frequency of the input signal. Period. If you can stop the manipulation from happening - you have stopped it from distorting. As long as the detector can monitor the phase of the fundamental and apply a countermeasure to prevent it from going any further - it now has no means of distorting. Classic negative feedback is supposed to do the same thing but it can't. It relies on monitoring the instantaneous voltage at the output and compares a reduced version back to the input (typically a differential pair). This method is monitoring the voltage along the vertical axis. Because of this configuration - vital information is lagging do to the fact that damaging events have already occurred by the time you notice a change in voltage. |
costco_eruption, Whoa! What’s with all the angst, Costco? OK, let me take a different tack. Let’s look at it this way. There’s a sailboat out at sea ⛵️ and it’s in the doldrums, you know where the air is very still. Where the air is not moving. Where it’s velocity is effectively zero as well as force. If the air was moving the sails would catch the wind, no? Only a fool would argue that air in a listening room is moving. The kinetic energy of the molecules is irrelevant. Only a fool would argue that the speed of sound is not constant in a given listening room. Any listening room. Even if it was in a wind tunnel. 🌬 |
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@geoffkait You're an idiot. If we need help with Morphic fields, Scientology, and new age hocus pocus we'll look you up. Roger is claiming circuits alter play speed AND he claims that's the source of distortion. That's pure BS. As for you claiming air is considered motionless, it is only because there's no alternative. Just putting sound in the room manipulates the pressure of the air at any given point and acts like it's just some presumed constant, which it is not. |
stevecham wrote, "Ok, so what are you going to do, slow down the propogation of an electrical audio signal to 750 mph? That in and of itself, if achievable, and I doubt it, would time distort the signal even further in the electrical domain." >>>>Uh, I get the feeling you’re not following the discussion. He’s not saying that at all. Then stevecham wrote, "And, I challenge that air does not time distort music; there are microbar or even nanobar changes happening in local environments constantly, simply through the movement of air alone. We know how wind direction can easily change if we hear across a distance or not. Air molecules are chemical entities; electrons are first generation leptons. Each is governed by a VERY different set of physical properties." >>>>Again, yours are Strawman arguments. He’s not saying any of those things. You are jousting at windmills. Furthermore, If you had been paying attention you’d know that electrons have practically nothing to do with it. Then stevecham wrote, "Changes in playback speed change pitch." >>>>>So what? You might as well say the sky is blue. He’s not implying playback speed changes. Hel-loo! |
Costco_emoji, obviously I’m referring to standard temperature pressure at sea level. You can ignore the kinetic VELOCITIES that Steve was trying to promote. I never said the speed of sound isn’t a function of temperature, Mr. Smarty Pants. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. The speed of sound is a constant at standard temperature and pressure. In Roger’s case you can assume any temperature or pressure you want. It doesn’t matter. He wants to preserve the speed of sound - whatever it is under the conditions at the time. Duh! The recording could have been made In 110 degree heat during a thunderstorm. It does not (rpt not) matter. Follow? |
@geoffkait I hate to break it to you, but stevecham is right. The speed of sound through air is directly proportional to the temperature of the air. You cannot make ANY assumptions about the speed of sound through air without considering it's thermal kinetic energy. The problem is with Roger saying stupid things like this: "Changes in the playback speed of the music signal generates harmonics. Air never alters the speed of the traversing sound waves - neither should the amplifier. If you can stabilize the velocity of the amplifier you have simulated that property of air. This is readily recognized by the brain." The speed at which the diaphragm of a driver moves isn't dictated by the speed of the electrical signal passing through the voice coil. It's dictated by the rise and fall of electromagnetic waves traveling nigh the speed of light. The rise and fall of those waves in the time domain is what gives rise to frequency, not the speed of the electromagnetic energy. There's no reason to believe that any amplifier significantly manipulates the speed of electromagnetic waves at audio frequencies. He's suggesting that circuits can act like prisms and that's not what circuits do. Just like waves on a body of water, small waves ride atop larger ones. If a small wave shares the same relative position and vector of a large wave, the small wave simply rides atop it. EM waves do the exact same thing through transistors. They don't apply gain at earlier or later times based on frequency. Again, he lacks proof. Not only can he not prove he's solved a problem, he can't even prove the problem exists. |
stevecham wrote, "And one more thing because this is ridiculous. You said "the velocity of air medium is zero.’ Nooooo Air molecules at room temperature move about 1000 mph. They are bouncing around and banging off each other at very high speed." Air is considered motionless in the room. The motion of something passing through air is relative motion. It's customary to consider the velocity of air zero relative to acoustic waves passing through it. Consider a listening room on a moving train where music is playing. The velocity of air in the listening room is still zero relative to the car of the train. Thus the velocity of acoustic waves passing through the air in a car on a moving train would be the speed of sound, the same velocity of acoustic waves in a room in a stationary building. It would be absurd to consider still air is moving at 1000 mph when it’s relative motion is zero. It would be equally absurd to consider the air in the room moving at the velocity of the Earth’s rotation on its axis or the velocity of the Earth’s motion around the sun. Besides, all the air molecular motion cancels out. The net velocity is zero since it’s all random motion. |
Ok, so what are you going to do, slow down the propogation of an electrical audio signal to 750 mph? That in and of itself, if achievable, and I doubt it, would time distort the signal even further in the electrical domain. And, I challenge that air does not time distort music; there are microbar or even nanobar changes happening in local environments constantly, simply through the movement of air alone. We know how wind direction can easily change if we hear across a distance or not. Air molecules are chemical entities; electrons are first generation leptons. Each is governed by a VERY different set of physical properties. Changes in playback speed change pitch. |
Christ almighty, Roger! What the hell are you talking about!?!? There you are claiming your gear does something that circuits do naturally. And now you’re claiming to be an expert in psychoacoustics. Harmonic distortion is caused by nonlinearity in the gain devices. Period. There isn’t any other cause. Transistors and vacuum times aren’t distorting time to amplify some signals before others. And you are no Bill Gates. Gates, Jobs, Hewlett, and Packard built their companies in intellectual property, of which you have none. |
kosst, Apparently you've been at this gig for years judging by the guy who offered to take a listen to your gear who wasn't overly impressed the last time he heard it.Its true - of course that was ten years ago. A lot of progress including a few breakthroughs have occurred since then. Do you know how many large corporations started in the garage of the founder? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Hewlett Packard - they all had to start somewhere. Being on the same path - I feel like I'm in good company. The trick is that you have to make progress otherwise technology WILL slow to a crawl. |
@stevecham Zero "velocity distortion" is an oxymoron. Just as there is no net movement of air molecules in the propogation of soundwaves, so too there is no net movement of electrons in the propogation of electrical signals in audio circuits.Very good - when you get a chance please have a look at my white paper where I describe among other things how the air closest to the violin is being disturbed by the sound vibrations coming from the violin (strings). Adjacent air molecules are passing the entire sound of the violin as a wave. What we hear with our ears is the influence of this disturbance flowing as a wave through air. The speed or velocity at which the wave travels is around 750 mph. The original air molecules have not left the stage they are still at the violin. Zero "velocity distortion" is an oxymoronThe velocity of the air medium is zero. In order to successfully amplify a music signal that is "traversing" as a flowing wave, you must maintain a constant velocity (neither faster or slower than 750 mph). Changes in the playback speed of the music signal generates harmonics. Air never alters the speed of the traversing sound waves - neither should the amplifier. If you can stabilize the velocity of the amplifier you have simulated that property of air. This is readily recognized by the brain. |
So far I've called you out on measurements, circuit architecture, theory, terminology, and the intellectual property. I won't count your confusion about what a volume knob does. That brings us to 5 points you've either BS'd your way around or completely ignored. Apparently you've been at this gig for years judging by the guy who offered to take a listen to your gear who wasn't overly impressed the last time he heard it. So far nothing but pseudo-techno-babble. Button line, Roger. Guys who design circuits to sell measure them, patent them, explain them, and if they're any good, the sell the hell out of them. You don't seem to have any intellectual property. You're clearly not selling the hell out of your gear. It's never been professionally reviewed. It's just you, talking smack, making crazy claims, with no proof whatsoever. |
I read this entire thread, oh boy. From the peanut gallery, all recording systems have inertia. Inertia will always distort the time domain relative to the original input. You can’t get away from this. It is a physical property that is built into such mechanical-to-electronic-to-mechanical transducers (microphones, loudspeakers). Zero "velocity distortion" is an oxymoron. Just as there is no net movement of air molecules in the propogation of soundwaves, so too there is no net movement of electrons in the propogation of electrical signals in audio circuits. Enjoyment of music comes first. Reinventing physics comes second. |
Pseudo-techno-babble. And you sure don't talk like you're familiar with the F5. You don't talk like you're familiar with electronics or physics. You're triangle comparison is silly. Sure, if you're silly enough to try to find it on a scope viewing the entire wave you'll probably never notice it. You brag you work in values of picovolts, but you can't prove it. You can't show me a circuit that does what you claim. You can't because it doesn't exist. If it existed you'd have patented it. But you can't patent imaginary things. |
kosst, I'm not accusing you of being the measurements freak. I'm sorry if you got that impression. I'm trying to show the difference between an amp that measures zero compared to an amp that IS zero.One sounds awful and one sounds incredible. Can you tell me how to measure zero distortion with a music signal as the source? If you measure the voltage level (of the source) like an orchestra playing normally and you get X amount. (lets say 1/2 volt nominal) Then without changing a beat - add the guy with the triangle at the back of the hall when he adds a single note to the mix. Besides not being able to identify it on a scope - how much additional voltage appears now that the triangle is playing. How big is just the triangle voltage? Millivolts? microvolts? nanovolts? picovolts? This is the range of signals I work with and have mastered control over. If the entire orchestra was quiet and just left the triangle - it would be seen on a scope as closer to the noise floor. In order to successfully project that object back to the rear of the hall and keep it in focus - you need circuitry with enough sensitivity and resolution to handle the task of rendering that object at that distance. The greater the depth or distance of an object - the harder it is to place it back into the image unscathed. |
You do realize I know the circuit you are listening to. Really good designers understand that carefully chose distortion is much better than no distortion.Not true. If that's what they think then they are not a really good designer. Something else is happening and they are blaming it on the zero distortion [settings]. They are using distortion as a partial countermeasure to the real issues. I happen to know exactly what the problem is with that circuit but I don't get involved with other designers stuff. When I said I don't think the designers are thinking outside the box - I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately they just don't know where to look to resolve the issues in their circuits. That's why things seem to have slowed to a crawl. They have run out of things to try. A circuit can actually measure zero distortion and still not be zero distortion.Typically a sign wave test does nothing but tell how good a low frequency servo it is. Music is an entirely different matter. |
