B&W Matrix 801 Series II

Congrats on your new speakers and listen to Ct0517 for setup advise; he knows his stuff. I have heard the 801's in at least five recording studios and at least that many non-studio setups, and learned very quickly just how good these speakers are. Not because the sound was always so great, but because it ranged from "what-the-f%#k" bad to incredibly good. There is a reason that these are/were used in so many studios. They are very revealing of what you feed them; not only in the usual "too bright" or "too dark" sense, but of subtle instrumental textures and phase issues. I have heard some setups using dated digital equipment or mediocre ss amplification sound practically unbearable over the 801's. I also have heard some of the most memorable and realistic sounding playback from them. 801's powered by the classic Conrad Johnson Premier 1 tube amp produced one of the most realistic sounds I have ever heard with fantastic (and correct) mid and lower midrange fullness, image density and dimensionality. I would take that setup in an instant. Enjoy them!

Well, the short answer is that I am very impressed with the 801s. When I first hooked them up in place of the Khorns for the few minutes I thought these speakers are going back. They were so different from the Klips it took me a while to get used to them. At first they seemed slow, almost lethargic compared to the Klips but after listening back and forth to the speakers I started warming up to them. The Khorns have this live, open airy, dynamic sound that I love and am used to hearing. They are also a good match for my MC275 tube MAC which really is not the best choice for the B&Ws. However, going back and forth between the speakers really showed me their differences.

The Khorns--- Very live sounding, open, airy with a tendency toward harshness at times. They make some studio recordings sound almost live. There is an excitement and clarity. You almost tense up sometimes because it feels live and you expect a passage to possibly get louder. They also sound exceptionally good at low volume and on acoustic music. Negatives are the tinge of harshness or rattiness of the very upper end which makes this speaker a bit fatiguing to listen to for longer periods. In my experience, this speaker still rates at the top of my list.

The B&Ws--- They seem like a true studio monitor as has been mentioned. They don't color the sound like the Klips do. They are smooth and not fatiguing to listen to. That is a great plus. Great low end and a B3 organ sounds incredible through them. Drums are really lifelike. Like ZEN, I thought the very upper end seemed not quite as good as the rest of the tonal spectrum. Voices sound really good. The MC275 just doesn't have enough horsepower for these speakers. With the right amp and preamp my guess is that these speakers are really going to get where I want to go.

I recently acquired a Parasound Halo A31 (250 watts per channel) for a system in a bedroom and hadn't heard it yet. The difference between this amp and the MAC with the B&Ws was really huge. Of course, the Parasound added a bunch of really good tight bass slam as you would expect but the little MAC was no slouch in the bass department either. What really surprised me was playing Patti Griffin in a very laid back acoustic track was how much more definition and clarity the MAC had over the Parasound through the B&Ws. The Parasound was also a little muddy. It is a $3k amp and really not up to what I would want to run through these speakers. I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from each other. The Parasound did sound good enough through my KEF LS50s which is what I bought it for.

ZEN, what is a MBL? I will take your advice and acquire some stands but why does getting these speakers in the air help so much?. Also, I gave $1500 for them. How'd I do?

CT0517, I set them up as you said but I didn't run the lows with the Parasound and the higher end with the Mac yet. I forgot about trying it until I reread your post tonight. What is bi-wire? I suspect it is the same as bi-amp? I am familiar with biamping. Remember , I am a musician not an audiophile. :-)

I am ready for some amp/preamp suggestions. What am I going to have to spend to do these speakers justice? I think I would probably prefer a used amp so I can get more bang for the buck. Would the $5000 range for each piece get me where I need to go? There are a pair of Krell 350mcx mono blocks down where i bought these speakers. They would be the only higher end amps I would have access to in my area.

Frogman, i have never heard a CJ but I have wanted to. They are on my short list.

I need to reread the posts on upgrading the crossovers. That is something i would think would make an appreciable difference on these old speakers. i want to get the most out of them i can.

So, what do you guys think?

Cool, sounds good. Thanks for the report. I can't say too much about the matching amps and preamps as I've never owned the 801s. However, the better the components, the better those are gonna sound. I personally wouldn't screw with the crossovers, I'm not that big into mods as you ruin the resale value and it's hard for me to hear the difference anyway. However, you can get new crossovers from B&W if you feel the crossovers are too old. Just a thought. Not sure on the availability at this time. go to bwgroupsupport.com for more details.

Also, I gave $1500 for them. How'd I do?

You did phenomenally. I've been looking for a pair myself and can only wish for a deal like that.

Wemfan - Great news as your speakers are functional. Assuming they are not really flawed cosmetically from being banged around a studio?, I agree with Banquo that you got a steal. fwiw - Last month a Canadian audio friend I know who has owned 801's in the past; purchased 801s again with shipping and he was very happy to pay $2500 plus shipping. They were in very good condition.

Btw - its a pleasure for me reading your honest, unbiased responses.

I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from each other

This can be seen as blessing or a curse - it depends on your point of view.
For example if you are an audiophile and a bit of a speaker cable/ wire "nut" - you may end up with 12 wires hanging on a wall somewhere in your house; one for every month ....smartly hidden from your ....

wife

The last four or five years I ended up with four turntables ...in the same room..... at the same time.
I place full blame on the 801's.
And if you can't laugh at yourself from time to time; then its time to get out of any hobby.

CT0517, I set them up as you said but I didn't run the lows with the Parasound and the higher end with the Mac yet. I forgot about trying it until I reread your post tonight. What is bi-wire? I suspect it is the same as bi-amp? I am familiar with biamping.

Remember, I am a musician not an audiophile. :-)

In order to become an audiophile you are required to step over to the dark side; do what manufacturers don't want u to do with their products :^)
As long as it does not result in conditions discussed earlier. Follow your own road using your own ears.
Definitely try this. I think you will be surprised at the results.
Remove the jumpers joining the four terminals - put Parasound to the bass terminals - Mc Amp to the Mid/HF connectors.

Biwire.
With factory jumpers removed.
When using just the Mc or the Parasound get another set of identical speaker wire for each speaker. Join the ends at the amp end - two (+) together and two (-) . You can buy banana or spade plugs that do this for you (connect them together) so single plug or spade - results. Be VERY careful not to let wire come loose from the amp input connectors and touch the amp frame.

At the speaker end attach one set (+ and -) to the high and one set to the lows. As the 801 do hit 5 ohms it is important to keep the wires short and decent quality. Don't mix and match the wires going to the mid/highs andf lows- keep them the same.
The last I had the 801 set up was with OTL amplifiers. OTL means Outboard Transformer Less. Meaning the main power transformers are not on the amp plinth where the tubes reside.
In this pic the main amplifier transformers are located outside of the picture area. The speaker cables are only a few feet long biwired.
click me

Like ZEN, I thought the very upper end seemed not quite as good as the rest of the tonal spectrum.

We should discuss this as it is the most common complaint from audiophiles on forums.

The good news is the speakers are fine, functional and and working as designed.
There are TWO parts to fix this - imo. if its not resolved with part one - part two will clinch it.

PART ONE is understanding their design and objective. I felt that the Stereophile review did a real good job summing them up based on my experiences.

From Stereophile (re: S2 review)

"Higher in frequency, the response trend (averaged across a 30 degrees lateral window on the tweeter axis) is basically flat, but with a slight excess of energy in the presence region and a corresponding lack of energy in the top octave. All things being equal, this will make the speaker both a little too revealing of recorded detail and somewhat fussy when it comes to the quality of source and amplification components, just as LL noted in his auditioning comments."

So we need a good source, preamp and amp/s, as we have discussed and as you have realized as well.

PART TWO of the problem.

Right now you are hearing a tonal imbalance based on your comments and it is causing the highs to stand out or not be as good as they should be. See the attached frequency chart from B&W on the 801's.

801 w &w/o filter in place

The plotted chart is the 801's without the BAF. Note how even though you think you are hearing good bass right now the db levels for the bass whether with SS or Tube are really dropping off starting at 100 hz. In a smaller room that 100hz plateau will cause real boom problems and the room will need to be treated.

The dotted lines have been drawn by B&W and show how the 801's measured with and without the BAF.
See how the dotted line drawn in by B&W for the BAF works on my sample makes the bass more linear. The lows are boosted increasing DB's and this establishes tonal balance by ensuring a flatter plot line. I don't have the actual plotted graph with the BAF.
The result of this is the bass notes will be clearer, and you will hear music notes on material below 40 hz from the source.
You are clearly hearing the differences between the amps now. imo you will therefore clearly hear the difference with the BAF on music that has sub 40 hz music. In technical terms the BAF converts them from a 4th to a 6th order butterworth alignment; with a 19 hz cutoff and boosts the low frequency.

Regarding the Krell amps you mentioned I will / can provide more info on this later as I have run way too long here. We would need to discuss if the Krells have been recapped for example. I think these are "one" example of a truly excellent candidate and would be awesome in that large room of yours. But $5000 is a big budget used as many amp candidates exist used including SS and tube designs. I can tell you I know that your current preamp MC 2300 is compatible with the Krell mentioned because it has capacitors coupled to the outputs to protect against a tube ever blowing and sending DC current to the Krell amp.... as the Krell design has no fuses to protect it if this happened. I have been down this road already because I also am using a Tube preamp albeit with a SS power supply, with my Krell amp right now.

As far as the speakers go; fwiw myself I would leave the crossovers for now - as they are not broken.

Get the BAF, get the stands, Get amp/s first. Here them as John Bowers envisioned first. You can always mod them later if desired.

To understand what the stands will do with proper amps a picture is sometimes worth a thousand words and gives you a glimpse of what these speakers are capable of.

original 801s s80..not matrix on stands...not designed to use BAF

Wemfan - Can I ask if you are an all digital setup (i.e. cd, file streaming) and/or do you play vinyl or plan on later ?
Sorry for the long post ....again.

Cheers