B&W Matrix 801 Series II

No problems on the current pre amp but that goes with the MC275 and Klipsch system. The 801s will be its own complete system. I read about the K 600 and it appears to be a killer amp. I read that it weighs 182 lbs.!!! Damn, I may not be man enough to own one. Maybe the wife can move it around for me...

Frogman, My Parasound is the A31 which is a 3 channel amp. The same amp but in stereo is the A21 and it is a $2000 amplifier.

I read that it weighs 182 lbs.!!!

where there is audiophile will - there is a way.
True story.
When I went to pick it up - I entered the front door of the sellers house - the lobby area.
it was a surprise that we went upstairs instead of downstairs.
It was the house of a single person (not married) - this seller.
How did I know this ?
Well he lived in a two story house and his 2 channel room was the master bedroom on the upper floor....
Nice big room ...... but suspended floors :^( ..... he was using 801 nautilus.
His sleeping quarters were I guess one of the smaller guest bedrooms.
Only a unmarried guy could get away with this I thought.
and I thought I had it good....
How many single female audiophiles reading this ....would give up their master bedroom - the one with double closets for this ?
The digital player was the top of the line Wadia and the preamp Pass Labs - X0.2
The main floor itself had a home theater setup with the kitchen next door. Nice touch.

We packed the 600 in the ingenious Krell box.
The 600 comes with a very unique box - allowing two people to easily place it in the box because it is as you say Wemfan - heavy.
You have to see the box itself to understand what I mean. It's really thought out well by Krell.
IN fact I was so impressed with the box that if the 600 comes with a Krell box its worth at least $500 more to me just for the box.
anyway.....
We strapped it to my two wheel dolly. We started slowly down the stairs to the main floor.
two levels of... if I remember 10 stairs each.
When at the bottom we left the amp on the dolly laid flat - horizontal - in the front hallway - and took a break.
We had a pop in his main room.

While we were chatting all of sudden there was a loud BANG!!! from the hallway near the amp.
The noise accentuated by the narrow front hall way.
WTF was all that I could think. It sounded like something in the amp blew up.
I was close.
one of the tires blew on the dolly holding the amp up......
Looking like the movies where the guy is driving around on one rim after a flat tire,
we rolled the crippled dolly and amp the rest of the way to the vehicle and put the amp in.

Maybe the wife can move it around for me...

My wife helped to lift the 800's into place. I wish now I had taken a picture of her face when they were up.
Amps stands with castors - like your 801's if moved around alot.

Funny story. That amp is a beast. I am sure it sounds great. I was rereading this thread and saw where you had listed one that was on Audiogon when this thread started but has since expired. I had forgotten about it.

Krell fpb600

here's the link again. not affiliated with the ad.
fwiw - in Canada this amp was close to $20k when new due to the dollar.
If built today I hazard a wild guess at over twice - or more - its new price back then to make today.

Finding synergy is the key as Frogman mentioned earlier.

imo -synergy means different things for each of us.

1) Some try to buy "Synergy". The latest and greatest products. in my personal experiences - I have not met one satisfied rich audiophile. They trade their gear like their stocks. But I need them because I buy used and take the depreciation - this allows me the cash needed to play with a few other hobbies.

2) Some try to find "Synergy" by DIY (do it yourself). Some build amps, others rip open their speakers and upgrade parts.

Others construct turntables ....... :^( - I got lost on this one myself for a good 6 years.

3) Some try to find "Synergy" buy doing as much homework as they can ahead of time. Educating themselves. Before they bring the products in. You seem to be most like this type from the posts to me. This is very good - imo.

Type 4 ?

For me personally 2 and 3 have produced the longest lasting feeling of satisfaction. Even when I have bought new and it worked out well the feeling of contentment never lasted as long. Probably because I did not learn anything along the way. This is all about the music and how it makes me feel. The equipment part for me is the "hobby part". I need to be learning to stay entertained.

When the music itself becomes a means to the end - its time to come up for some air. The symptoms when this happens are pretty clear.

Cheers

My previous post relates to my personal experiences.
If any of this info hits home with anyone it is pure coincidence.
I was just sharing.
Wemfan - I apologize for suggesting you seem to be a fit a certain type.
This was wrong and none of my business.

I'll just say...
I always try to match amp up with speaker. Not speaker with amp.
The speaker is what interfaces with the room.

On the preamp side - along with being compatible with your amp it needs to serve the needs of your source.
We have no information at all on this other than you use cd's and records.
We need to know brands, cartridge type, etc...
Happy listening.
Good luck with your search.

Cheers

No worries, Tim.

I finally brought the Krell 350mcx mono amps home for a demo. I have been A/B ing back and forth with the MC 275 all evening and I really like the Krells. Of course there are things I like about each amp better than the other but I really like these Krell monos for the inefficient B&Ws. They are a good match.

I finally brought the Krell 350mcx mono amps home for a demo.

Nice ... how long do you have to play with them before having to make a decision ?

of course there are things I like about each amp better than the other

I'd be interested in any impressions you can share with how they compare to the Parasound and the McIntosh.

Do the Krell mono's have what it takes to fill your 30 x 30 x 11 space "comfortably" without clipping ?

Regarding amplifier clipping and how to know when it is happening.
The B&W Support site has an interesting description of how to know when an amplifier is starting to clip.
Taken from the link.

How can I tell if the amplifier is clipping?

The initial stages of clipping add harshness to the sound. At higher levels, this progresses to a gritty sound; not dissimilar to the effects of having fluff on the stylus of a vinyl disc player.

From my experiences on the 801 s3 - clipping becomes much more obvious with a SS amp over Tubes.
This is why it is so important imo to ensure your amps/s and especially SS amps are "cruising" - not working hard - when playing peaks in your music.

Its frustrating and a wreck of the experience if your into your music and it is sounds lovely; then it reaches a climactic point in the song - you're right there with it - and the balloon bursts as you hear that little bit of harshness kick in. We have all been there ?
This could be because the amp is working as designed and just doesn't have enough balls. Or maybe a good indicator that it needs work - ie. maybe the capacitors need to be changed?

fwiw - I would put on some nice full orchestral classical music that has huge dynamic swings - starting quiet to loud and back to quiet - passages and "crank it" in your room to find out. This is a test drive and you don't have your wife or neighbors (or the sellers of the amps) telling you to keep it down. :^)

Cheers

Congrats Wemfam. Happy listening with your new amps!

First off Chris I apologize for calling you Tim. Sorry....

Thanks, Dave.

I can keep the amps really as long as I would like. I took them back today but my friend says for me to keep them a while.

My review..

These monos really are incredible. They sound really, really good. I am very surprised by how good they are. I have spent the last several days listening and comparing and I am just really impressed. Blown away by how good they sound. Of course, the low end nears perfection but these amps sound good all the way up as well. The Parasound just isn't even in the ballpark but we are talking a $2k amp compared to a $12k amp. The Parasound is currently on bedroom theater duty and does fine for that. I was surprised comparing the MC275 with the 350mcx. On the B&Ws the MC275 just doesn't have enough horsepower so dynamics and slam are diminished. It still has a small edge in the vocal range but overall the Krell is just a better amp to use with the B&Ws. However, on the Khorns it was the other way around the tube Mac came out on top. So, i guess there is a lot to this "synergy" talk I have been running into. Of the best two combinations 275&Mac VS. Krell&B&Ws the later came out on top for me. I like both setups but I think the 801s with that higher power SS amp is my current favorite.

However, I am reticent to acquire the Krell because of its age. It is 9 years old and from what I understand it needs a cap job. I checked into it and it will run about $2000 without shipping. I know everything sounds good now but eventually service will be required. My friend is asking $4000 but he says he will come down in light of the needed service. How much should I pay if I decide to go that way? Another amp I am thinking about is a Mac mc452. How do you think the two amps compare sonically? The Mac I can get a great deal on, would be brand new and has great resale value. If I invest in the Krell it would be for the long haul with no thought of resale. I want to make the best sonic decision.

Guys I need some input here. I ned to make a decision fairly soon.

Chris, this is one of those times I need a long post.

Thanks for all of the input, guys.

I apologize for calling you.....

Wemfan, no worries I have been called much worse .....by my wife.

Re: Krell

Of course, the low end nears perfection but these amps sound good all the way up as well.

that is really good news. Sounds like you found "synergy" - do you realize that some audiophiles go in circles for 20 years+ looking for this. Changing gear in and out. Spending big $$$$

Recapping an amplifier is NOT rocket science.
The key is to find a good local guy; someone you can drive the amps to within an hour of you.
No shipping of heavy amps for me. Too many risks with couriers - ANXIETY filled.
A post on audiogon asking for service people in your area would give you an answer if you pursued that route.
You would be provided with names/numbers of people who come with reputations having worked on Krells.
fwiw - The service is $1200 for a 600, over 200 capacitors are replaced and then you are good for XX years.

Another option is to contact Dan D'Agostino direct. Yes D.A.
Audiophile rumor has it he (well his techs) will work on the Krells. but you didn't hear it from me. just a messenger.

But those 350 monoblocks are still young ? I would not think they would need caps for a while yet- but I am not a fortune teller and provide no guarantees. You are in a good position to know as they are local and are being sold by a friend so they have the history on them.
fwiw - have a look at the top screws. Have they ever been off ? If not this means everything is still as it came from the factory. This is a good thing imo as it means they were made on "a good day"
6 months ago my Studer tape deck died for some reason - lost power. My tech thought it was the power supply capacitors.
When I brought it over it was another problem. The capacitors were still at full spec. Do u know how old the Studer is ?
We hear a lot of doom and gloom on Audiophile forums about capacitors, tubes blowing, etc....
This is the Audiophile paranoia side you're hearing..... Music lovers are more care free .....
They (Music Lovers) are a lot more fun and they listen to better music than Audiophiles :^)

Re: MC 452

Another amp I am thinking about is a Mac mc452. How do you think the two amps compare sonically? The Mac I can get a great deal on, would be brand new and has great resale value.

How great a deal can u get on the Mc? You don't need to tell us the price. The point being...... can you resell on the market for same money or close to what they cost you if they don't work out? Then it may be worth the effort to bring that amp in just to hear it. A/B that Mc 452 amp with the Krell mono's.

I think that everyone on this thread would like to hear you impressions of both as well ?
That's a comparison I would personally like to read about.

Your space is 30 x 30 x 11. You've told us you like to crank it up and you like to walk around in your studio. This means the amp/s need to fill your whole space not just at your listening chair position.

Some of the amps mentioned here.

Krell 350
8 Ohms 350 W, 4 ohms 700 W, 2 Ohms 1,400 W

Krell 600
8 ohms 600 W, 4 ohms 1200 W, 2 Ohms 2400 W

McIntosh 452
450W @ 2, 4 or 8 Ohms
Uses Autoformers

We've seen some audiophile passion on your thread - re: SS and Tubes.
You will see the same amount of passion if you go threads that discuss Autoformers.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1262655794&read&keyw&zzmac=autoformers

I have no comment on it.

If you're considering the krell 350's, once you have the local service guy identified; you can have him check out the amps before you buy. He will check the values, see if there is any bulging or leakage going on, or any leakage /burnt marks on the actual circuit board.
Have this guy in your pocket to bring it to when its time. Piece of mind.
Myself I would not buy without having a local guy known and personally talked to about my situation - just so I am comfortable going in. There is a pair of those amps on audiogon right now.

Its VERY important to have dedicated 20 amp lines with higher power Krells for their health.
You will know when its time to recap. You will start hearing pops.
Also the dynamics and famous Krell bass and smooth highs will start getting worse.
So it will sound start sounding like it is clipping.

Hope this helps and let us know how it turns out. Don't forget the BAF.

Cheers

Another good post, thanks. I ordered a Mcintosh MC452 today so we will see how the two amps stack up against each other. I will post my impressions of the comparison. I am very curious as I have no idea what to expect. I do want the Krells they are just so too darn good to let them go but after I have heard the Mac I will know better what kind of deal to make. I did read someplace where a guy moved up to the 450mcx from the 350s and he said it was a big improvement. Your 600 must really be something.

I would guess that I will have to go to Dallas for a good tech which isn't too bad since I go there a lot, anyway. Of course, I won't do anything until there is a problem which may be way on down the road as you say. I feel as you do about shipping heavy amps.

Meanwhile the Krells are resting comfortably in my studio. I plan to spend some time with them this weekend and i will see how they sound all around the room as you suggested. One thing I know, they are killer amps!

I look forward to your impressions Wemfan.
Remember to factor in the service cost down the road (whenever it is needed), as part of the purchase price when considering the Krells.

Selfishly, I would like for Vegasears to drive over to your studio with his VTL 450's.

Then we could hear three-way comparison impressions.

But a google of Vegas to Dallas shows an 18 hour drive !

Cheers Chris