B&W Matrix 801 Series II

Tls49-
No offense meant. In fact, I too used to practice my electric guitar to the stereo. I found that I had to either turn the guitar amp (Fender ChampII 70W) way down or away from me, or crank up the stereo to be able to hear both. In my room of 9X15X30, I sit about 10' from the speakers. At normal listening levels, I get about 80-85 db at the sweet spot. To get 90db+, I need to increase the volume to past 2/3, which I don't like to do.

Wemfam-

Speakers are about 9-9.5" off the floor. B&W made purpose built stands, of course no longer available. Arcic made a sand-filled box, which you could probably do yourself. I bought my Sond Anchors used ( still available direct, bu pricey).

See the following thread RE: the crossovers - http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=speakers&m=274098.
The upgrade is available from here - http://www.northcreekmusic.com/801web.html
Realize, I had these speakers 22 years before upgrading. The increase in sound quality is not night & day (IMO), but for me, worth it. the bass goes deeper, is more punchy & tight, & there is a sense of unrestrained openness.

RE the BAF-
1) B&W made one as an option. They are available frequently on ebay (look for either the model for the 801 matrix or the variable model for the 800 matrix). I wouldn't pay more than $150-175.
2) Hifi dealer in Colo. Listen Up made the Maughanbox. I paid $400 on ebay for mine.
3) JPS labs made aftermarket filters. IMHO, not worth what people are asking for them used ($900+)
4) Krell made an after market unit that was adjustable for the 800 Matrix line. Probably the best of the bunch, but going for around $1500+ when you can find them. (Dan D'Agostino [started Krell amps] made these for his personal B&W speakers at the time. B&W heard about it and suggested to Dan to sell them to B&W owners).

If you do audition the speakers, IMO I would place a throw rug between the speakers & your listening spot, otherwise you may find the speakers too bright.

Regarding the amp, the Parasound is probably acceptable. I'm currently using a Krell KAV-250, which is probably about the same. I'm convinced that I have not even come close to the potential of the speakers.

Hi Wemfan

another long post - sorry - as I have my coffee and the caffeine kicks in. :^(

I am leaning toward seeing if I can borrow them for a test drive

Right on - there is no better way - in your own room with your own equipment.

I do have a Parasound A31 3 channel amp that is 250 watts @8ohm.

It will work to try out the speakers. I have not heard that amp.
But remember you are asking this question on the speaker forum
You will get audiophile 2 channel nut jobs -myself included - answering.
If you ask this question on the Home Theater forum you would probably get a different response

So take this with a grain of salt.

The A31, like all Halo-branded amplifiers, is a high-bias Class A-AB amplifier, meaning the first few watts - in this case seven - are delivered in pure Class A fashion before switching over to AB status.

taken from here.

http://hometheaterreview.com/parasound-a31-three-channel-power-amplifier/

In comparison my old Classe CA300 two channel amp stayed in class A for 30 watts.
So this Parasound was designed for Home Theater - again my opinion.
The 801's are revealing and will let you know when the amp is in A/B.

I am looking for a smoother sound compared to the Khorn system. Something clear and musical

Are you looking for an addictive midrange combined with liquid and shimmering highs ?

If SS you need to stay with Class A as long as possible. The 801's are just too revealing.

Definitely try your McIntosh set at 4 ohms sitting closer.

Also not to get ahead of ourselves but your parasound has gain controls.

I would try hooking it up to the woofers and hooking your McIntosh on the mids and tweeters.
Adjusting the parasound gain to where you have your preferred tonal balance. bass/mid/highs.
But this "IS" getting ahead of ourselves.......

Also, you guys mentioned getting them up high. How high?

I would listen to them on their castors/spikes first - then try them higher later.
The Sound Anchor stands are very expensive.

Some more facts you should be aware of :
Two matrix versions of 801's were made s2 and s3.
There are differences.

S3 used a different crossover than s2 - less component count.
Better isolated mid and hf boards.
Bass inductors with an iron dust core .
Rotating midrange – tweeter head assembly was permanently connected. (from 3 to 4 pin delivering separate ground signals to midrange and tweeter)
Magnetic fluid cooling of the tweeter (like the 800 matrix) - the reason the apoc protection eliminated (circuits needed for this were also removed)

imo - the S2 is great candidate for a crossover upgrade.
I have a couple of friends that have done this. Thread poster Elee has also done this with his S2.
The S3 is not as great a candidate for the reasons above. This is a personal call.
I came real close to doing the upgrade with Northcreek.
I had a number of direct discussions with B&W senior people - they convinced me not to do it with the S3.
this included identifying the listed differences between them. Its a $2500 cost to do if I recall.

So botomline all this makes the stock factory 801 S3 more desirable than the Stock factory 801 S2.
prices reflect this.


fwiw -
I drove 10 hours one way to pick up my S3 in '94. And returned same day.
The 801's always seem to become available locally when you are not looking for them.
Funny how this works.
So local 801's you can pick up are rare.

Either way 801 S2 or 801 S3 stock - you can buy and try and sell for same or more money if it doesn't work out.
What other speaker can claim this - I'd like to know brand/model names.
Its a win -win situation for everything except your back to carry the damn things.

I see alot of value $$$ just in the matrix cabinetry on its own - without considering the electronics and drivers.
I also own B&W DM70's - Electrostat hybrids from the 70's.
Their cabinet construction still to today hasn't degraded. I appreciate quality like this.

Wemfan - the B&W filter/equalizer comes up occasionally here and on Ebay, or kijiji, etc...
Usually around $150 - 250 from what I have seen. I own Krell, Maughan and B&W versions.

You can read more about them here.

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/b-w/800-series-bass-alignment-filter.htm

Tls49
My post is based on an experience I had while working at a B&W dealer. Sold a customer some B&W’s, not 801’s, but a lesser model that had a sensitivity of 88-90db, with quality electronics. Then he started having trouble with blown tweeters, so we repaired, increased power to maximum for the speaker, and he still had problems.

Hi Tls49 - am curious. Which speakers with which amps ?

Cheers

After reading all of the posts I am leaning toward seeing if I can borrow them for a test drive depending on what shape the speakers are in (thanks CT0517). I do have a Parasound A31 3 channel amp that is 250 watts @8ohm. I just got it and haven't heard it yet. Should that amp be a good match for the B&Ws? I bought the Parasound for a theater bedroom system i am working on. I don't need this system to be loud. I guess I am looking for a smoother sound compared to the Khorn system. Something clear and musical. Really, I don't know how to describe it but something in a different direction from the MAC/Khorn system.

Also, you guys mentioned getting them up high. How high? The floor is hardwood. Elee you mentioned you upgraded the crossover. How do you go about that and what are the symptoms that a crossover needs upgrading? can I still acquire a Bass Alignment Filter or are they hard to come by?

All of the opinions are very helpful. Thanks...

Elee, I do agree with the comments in your post as I have listened to 801’s many times , and owned a pair of Matrix 802’s some years ago.

My post is based on an experience I had while working at a B&W dealer. Sold a customer some B&W’s, not 801’s, but a lesser model that had a sensitivity of 88-90db, with quality electronics. Then he started having trouble with blown tweeters, so we repaired, increased power to maximum for the speaker, and he still had problems. So I went to his home and discovered he was doing exactly what Wemfan described, playing his guitar as he played the system. I then swapped the B&W speakers for some Klipsch towers with a much higher sensitivity. He was happy with the change because the system did what he wanted it to do, and never had another problem.

I’m not saying anything bad about the 801’s, I just think they are the wrong speaker for how Wemfan would try to use them.

They've certainly have stood the test of time, and they're the most well known high end speaker from the 80s. But, as others said, you need a lot of power, highest quality cables (bi wire,) high quality preamp and sources, bass alignment filter, and good stands. However, if you have carpet on concrete floor, listening to them with just the castors is not bad at all, imo.

Wemfan, you can find a lot of information about the speakers here, listed as "Matrix 801 S2"

http://bwgroupsupport.com/

After reading your post about playing "quite loud", I think it is necessary to consider speaker sensitivity, 801s (87db), Cornwalls (102db), Khorns (105db). A decrease of 3db in speaker sensitivity means that double the power is needed to maintain the same system capability. As an example, should it require just 5 watts for a dynamic peak on the Khorn, then that same dynamic peak would require 320 watts on the 801. Here is a good online calculator you can use for different senarios,

http://www.allegrosound.com/Power_AllegroSound.html

IMHO, the large room with distance from the speaker and playing "quite loud" 801's just might not be a good choice for this application. Playing loud on any speaker that is underpowered can easily result in blown tweeters.

Depending on the age of the Klipsch speakers, many people think the older original drivers were better than some of the newer ones, although crossovers may need attention. I have a friend that is a Klipsch fanatic. Do a google search for, KLIPSCH HERITAGE REFERENCE DATA - (V.2 - 9 May 2008) and download the pdf. This is complete data by serial number on all the Heritage series.
Here is a good source for rebuild/mod to your Klipsch speakers,

http://www.critesspeakers.com/

Also, I think Zu Audio speakers would work well for your application. A few years ago while working at an A/V retailer, a fellow employee told me that SRV's guitar sounded more realistic on his Zu Audio speakers than on the B&W 802D/Mcintosh MC402 at the store.

http://www.zuaudio.com/

Wow! You have some serious gear! Great looking room. Your 801s look better than the ones I am looking at which are an Oak finish I would guess. They kind of look like Early American furniture, really dated.

The room is a nice size because it is a studio connected to the house by a walkway but otherwise separate. (I am a musician so I have to have a studio to play in.) I live on 10 acres with my nearest neighbor being about 300 yards from me so I get quite loud, a lot. I have had a full PA system set up in there but it really wasn't clean enough so now my main system is the Mac stuff through the Khorns. I listen to a lot of acoustic Americana type stuff along with classic rock and blues. I try to keep one system loud enough so I can play a guitar through an amp and play along with the music. I do this a lot because that is how i figure out music to play it. I do also listen for extended periods at reasonable volumes, too.

I sit at least 15' from the speakers. I like to have two stereo set ups in the studio, one loud and the other doesn't matter as long as it sounds good. I like my main system but I feel the Khorns probably need to be rebuilt and there are probably better choices in speakers for me, although I don't currently know what they are. I have some Cornwalls I may try and rebuild if that is a better option than the 801s. I have always concentrated on my music gear so now, for a time, I want to get my stereo gear up to par and it is a field I am not that versed in nor do I have much opportunity to hear good equipment.

I have been planning to go SS in second system. I don't want it to be like the first. I will have the guy that is selling the speakers check them out for me if I decide I may want them. He is selling them on consignment and isn't too impressed with them but I know him well so he will help me all he can.

The speakers don't have the BAF.

Nothing excessive in your post. You would be surprised at what I learned reading it. Actually, I reread it several times. I am trying to learn and make some good decisions and it is hard when you don't know what you're doing. I appreciate all of the good information. Keep it coming>

The room is about 29'x29'x11'.

I am under the impression they need a lot of power.

that is one really nice sized room.
if you look at my virtual system at the 801 heading - you will see a pic of the s3 in a room that is a backwards 7 shape.
They are in the top part of the 7 which is a space about 17 - 25.
You will also see a pic of them in another room in nearfield.
Two different objectives.
So it depends on your objectives - how close u will sit - spl levels, type of music.

In my experience they need "quality" power at just above 4 ohms for the amp to be able to control the woofers and still have what it takes for the mid/highs. if the amp gets taxed out on the low end you will experience brighter/harsher sounds. I base this is on my listening.
They are not forgiving in this regard at all .
this is the reason for needing the better quality gear in front - the better gear the better they will sound.
there are no shortcuts here.
They are not plug and play audiophile speakers.
They are like trying to tame a wild horse.
If you are willing to make a commitment and work with them they will reward you.
You will also need to get them off their castors and up in the air.

My best pieces are a Mac c2300 and MC275.

for your room this will depend on how close you will be sitting to the 801's.
25 feet or 10-15 feet ?

I get excellent results with both SS and Tube.
My tube amp Music Reference RM9 set at 4 ohms.
It is conservatively rated for 100 wpc but it is imo more - I think I have read 125 wpc soomewhere but not sure - and with KT88 tubes.

If this is more of a room where you want to fill the whole space I would go with SS and as much quality wattage as possible.
Doubling down from 8 ohms to 4 ohms.

A local repair shop has them is why I am interested.

this is actually a good thing imo.
Have a look at the woofers screws - have they been pulled before?

Have the shop take the woofers out - rest them on a table with the magnets down.
they have rubber surrounds so there will be no rot like other speakers that use foam or other material.
Manually extend the cones slowly and gently - fully with both hands upwards and then push them down gently.
this should be very smooth with no scratchy sounds at all.

The wires surrounding the voice coils are covered with a clear lacquer.
If the 801's have been abused - mostly meaning under powered,
the amplifier would have been clipping and sending heat to the coils.
this warps and actually melts the lacquer covering the coil wires which is needed for smooth travel.
if you hear a scratchy noise when moving the cones the coils need to be replaced -
Easily done at a speaker coning place.
But the price needs to be factored in.

Also have a look at the spiders. how taut are they.
If they are really loose and flabby it indicates previous owners caused alot of excessive woofer movement. there will be some movement but they shouldn't feel flabby loose.
this happens alot with vinyl guys that didn't use the bass alignment filter they came with. LOL.
they were designed by John Bowers to use a BAF to be able to achieve 20 hz. with their size cabinet, and also control subsonic frequencies which cause cone excursions and intermodulation distortion.

anyway
The woofers can be re-spider-ed with same compliant spiders and brand new voice coils put in for about $150.00 each.
this $300 needs to be factored in.

Sorry for the excessive brain dump and detail - hope this helps?

Do they come with the factory bass alignment filters or stands ?

The room is about 29'x29'x11'. I am not sure what I will put in front of them since I am under the impression they need a lot of power. My best pieces are a Mac c2300 and MC275. However, I have those running a pair of Klipschorns. I also have some Cornwalls. I am guessing the B&W is going to sound quite a bit different than the horn cabinets. A local repair shop has them is why I am interested. I heard them under far less than ideal conditions. I am on the fence about them and need some opinions of what to expect if I drag em home. In my area there is really no place to hear good audio equipment. If I acquire them I would then look for a suitable amp.

My brother who passed away last year had the 802's from that same era. I believe they were made in England.
I thought his sounded very good with a Bryston Amp driving them.
Although, one tweeter did not work. So make sure to check them out.

First, realize that you will get some polarizing answers on this site, as there are some who dislike the B&W sound.

You should check out the review of this exact model at the Stereophile website : http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/506/index.html. Note the follow up with the graphs. There is also another article, where they asked John Bowers (the B of B&W)how he tested his studio monitors for accuracy. He replied that he used panels of musicians, recorded cuts, then they listened to playbacks of the recordings on the speakers. They then tweaked the speakers based on feedback from the musicians.

IMHO,you would be hard pressed to find a full range brand new pair at this price & quality.

There are some who say that they do not image & soundstage realistically - not true. They will reproduce what is on the recording. If you know someone who has the Decca/London AIDA w/ Karajan (CD or LP), & if you look at the photos of recording session of Triumphal march session, you can clearly hear the precise placement of the various singers, choirs, stage band, etc. in both L-R and front to back positions. The vocals are precise in space, properly sized, not overly large in the soundstage.

Some say they cannot play rock or Jazz well. Nonsense. Listen to Coltrane's Crescent album or Tal Wilkenfeld's Transformation CD, or Zep's Achilles Last Stand (Presence). The bass lines go deep, are punchy, but you can still delineate the actual notes, plus the kick drums clearly punch through electric bass.

They are the monitors used by most classical labels (Universal Music Group, Pentatone), Abbey Road, Skywalker Sound. Epica (Dutch Symphonic Metal Band ) albums were monitored using I believe BW Nautilus 802's (They can be seen on one of the DVD documentaries that came w/ the album).

All this being said, there are several caveats.
They will not editorialize the sound. So many rock & pop recordings will sound as bad as they truly are (Van Halen albums come to mind). That's a personal decision. I want to hear what is there. On the MFSL CD reissue of Ronstadt's Prisoner in Disguise ,she is truly in the room w/ you/ but the speaker also reveals that the drums were recorded in a tiny control space (or miked to closely). Check out the SACD of Shelby Lynne's Just A Little Lovin' for a "you are there" experience.

They will reveal what is upstream, so if you use less than stellar front end equipment, they will show it. Don't even think about using a receiver to drive them. These babies are rather inefficient (87 db), and can take up to 600W. I'd recommend at least 150 : 200-250 would be better. You also want an amp that can comfortably drive speaker impedances of 4 Ohms. They also need to be properly placed w/in the room.

It's true that the weak link of this speaker is the crossover. I've upgraded mine. You also do need the bass alignment filter, which did not always come with the original purchase. Some people say it muddies the sound, but I prefer to use it. I've also upgraded this to an aftermarket product. That being said, I could happily live w/ the speaker stock.

You should check the surrounds on the drivers, especially the woofer units. If the owner took proper care, they should NOT be deteriorated. The drive units are no longer available from B&W. The speakers really need to be on dedicated stands to reach their potential (Sound Anchors). The speakers came with metal spikes that screwed into the bottom. You should also check that the bottom cover is not cracked. This is where the crossover is. The cover itself is rather flimsy.

I bought mine in 1989. When the Signature 800 came out in the early 2000's for the then outrageous amt. of $20K, I was seriously thinking about upgrading, but was talked out of it by a local dealer, who thought that the cost did not justify the increase in performance.

Hope this helps.

Hi Wemfan

Are they good sounding speakers or just okay?

My experience is they will sound as good as the equipment in front of them; and when placed properly in a room, can be very good.

For these two reasons - if you can say what amplification you will you be using, and provide room dimensions, I can provide you with an opinion based on this info.

Also If you choose to go see them I can give you some advice on how to determine if any of their previous owners abused them.

Cheers