Cable vs. Electronics: biggest bang for the buck

leme: each is a lattice of energy (energy coalesced as matter) that acts as a conduit for the passing of other symmetries of energy (electric). I didn't intend to imply that different rearrangements do not effect that transference in different ways - directivity, etc. - but that at a fundamental level they are the same and that scientific positions premised upon the manipulation of energy/matter (scientific materialism) are irrational when they claim that they are fundamentally different based on their surface appearance.

Like Muralman, your point MAY be that such a bias may exist in some - which, if you look at my first post was all I was trying to say - but that, regardless, such rearrangements at our hands DO produce different results. And, moreover, we can draw strong correlations in patterns between complexity vs. performance. As I said, I agree, but point out that the experience of listening is the final arbitor.

I know what you mean: that wire is "passive" towards the energy that passes through it, while we have purposely rearranged amp-matter to be "active" towards the energy passing through it should make a difference, shouldn't it? But ask yourself, is a wire "passive"? A designer of wire might say that the rearrangement he constructs directly leads towards performance differences; same with the amp designer. So what is different?

A question: you say that wire only dissipates energy and an amp converts it. Without going into the semantics of the ACTIVE verbs "dissipates" and "converts", if wire only performs a dissipative function, then what is it that ends up at the speakers, non-energy? If all is energy (Einstein, you remember him...), then what could possibly end up at the speaker that wasn't energy?

As energy passes through any other form of energy, it changes, not in nature but how it manifests to us. There is no "perfect" wire. How you rearrange that matter (design a la Homo faber)effects transference and, accordingly, our observations of them, in listening or a "scientific" experiment.

Question: if amp-matter is designed by us to "convert" energy, and wire is designed by us to "transfer" energy (dissipation occuring from both forms BTW, regardless of our design intentions...), then does our design intent make wire "less" a consideration in system construction than an amp? In other words, by differentiating varrying ways we've designed our components to behave - both, as I've shown to be "active" upon the energy they pass - then arent we just right back to the complex/less complex argument?

Here's what people have been trying to say to me:

An amp, by the way it more "complexily" and "actively" acts upon the energy passing through it, is more important than wire in constructing a system.

My response: yes, but less so as the instrument/system increases in resolving power; in systems that are analytically focused, wire is only needed to transfer "detail", but in more advanced systems, wire is needed to transfer both detail and more subtle nuances.

Interestingly, those who argue for analytic systems and are attached to scientific explanations are the same people who say wire doesn't make a difference, attempting to categorize wire-matter as fundamentally different to perfect that argument.

Coincidence?

Asa, thanks for your beautiful and and immensely kind and touching response. We will have to move to private conversation to go further. Please give me time. I have so little. A fond wave across the oceans,

At last I have entered into the "wire" realm; a place of no interest to me. I feel... Not inspired.

So I look around myself, feeling like a babe in toy land. Teasing myself with such a glorious thought; allowing oneself such largesse as to spend 7 K on wires. I am so jealous. Really.

Of course, there are a lot of other things in audio alone I can spend 7 geeze to improve my audio enjoyment. Things I don't have, like a truly great turn table, the perfect cartridge... Wall to wall Persian carpet (room treatment).

I really shouldn't have walked into this candyland. You see, I'm on a married man with kids in college budget. How serendipity. It just dawned on me, my entire system is worth seven thousand. Now, how about that! What's more, is it is a music system that I bet would bring tears to nearly every one of you; yes, perhaps even you, Asa.

In the next few days, I will have visited one of our audiogon contributors, an audiophile. This man has wires for his system that would make Asa blush. He has gone so far as to rewire from breaker box to dedicated outlet with "8 awg teflon wrapped silver core wire." The "metal matter (Asa)" trail ends up with venerable 1980's Spendors. His front end is more costly and reportably superior to mine, and his amp may just be superior as well. I don't know what to expect.

Hmmm, 7 big ones, and probably more. I pray Nrchy and Asa aren't right.

Of course, in short time, the same gentleman will visit me for a listen to my WIRE POOR system. I hope we can both relate our observations. I'll be happy to, at least.

Muralman1, I see your point, but we're all on different budgets for different reasons; we all have different levels of audio experience; we have different levels of interest, and even that varies form topic to topic (i.e., analog vs. digital). Yet, I don't know of any A'gon member (and certainly not Asa, Deltof or Nrchy who started this thread) who outwardly boasts about his/her expenditures just to impress fellow members. (That would be sad, indeed.)

It helps, however, to communicate details about your own system(s) to establish your point of reference. Many members who have $5-10K systems (or even less, and like yourself, are happy with the results they've achieved) contribute meaningfully to this forum on a regular basis. Knowing that someone has experience with $50K and $100K systems (whether their own or through other listening experiences) helps me (the reader) to gauge that particular contributor's perspective. Whether I wish to emulate that person's spending pattern is an entirely different, and intensely personal, matter.

I'm not in the market for $7K wires either, but the topic of this thread is of interest to me in general terms, and although the depths of the philisophical exchange between Asa and Detlof is not of particular interest to me, it was easy enough for me -- and others -- to skip over without the necessity of hurling insults in their direction!

WMmcmanus, apologies to you and to all the others, for my selfishly misusing this thread to veer off on a tangent from it together with ASA. Glad, we didn't get any flak, which would have been quite understandable but also shows the generosity of our colleagues here.
For myself, I've learnt the importance of wires through the years and I try to use them as discernedly as I am able to, it makes me always uncomfortable however, if I feel tempted to use ic's as an instrument to better voice my system. I only try to do that as a last resort, when everything else fails. Basically wires should neither add nor subtract anything from a well set-up rig, but that is purist theory, I suppose. Cheers,