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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Dgarretson.

I do take with a grain of salt what the manufacture says of what is important. I know Linn said source was everything as they had top rated sources. (so of course they would say that)

I do not know what the mid caps will do. But I have put resources into other areas such as Lingo power supply, Cirkus bearing, Ekos MkII tonearm (better pre-amps and amps) and not one thing I have done has been as big as the caps. So is it exotic or cost effective upgrading? One thing I can say is I believe Steen was very much an audiophile than a guy looking to make a ton of money. The fact that he gave away all of his findings saying he would not be able to bring them all to commercialization lets you know where his heart was.

Dgarretson I do believe that him saying 25% of a system should be in the crossover is controversial. (who else has ever said such a number!) It does open things up to good healthy debate as to where we should put our money in audio. No matter what audio is surely better when guys like him question what is the excepted norm.

Dgarretson if by saying a Viking Stove in track housing you mean to much $ into the crossover realitive to the rest of system?

If one spent (based on new prices) set of Khorns $8k a $3k source $3k pre $3k amp and wires IC etc you would have $20k into a system. The you put in a $200 crossover network. So that would be 1% of the budget. Is that not like putting $29 Walmart tires on a Ferrari???

When you say exotic to me that means crazy amounts of money for realitively small improvements. Audio is filled with that stuff! $10k cartridges that don't sound any different than $3k ones. (at least to me) I assure you I have no interest or money for that! I am only spending until I stop hearing huge improvemnts. If I order the CAST Duelund's and they fail to improve the system to the point where I feel I would have been better with money elsewhere I will be the first to admit it.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Dgarretson

I have taken to heart what you said. I am going to burn in the Mundorf products for the next couple weeks. That will help determine is the $ improvement the best bang for the buck of anything I could do.

You are right one Duelund was huge improvement, two in same same circuit does not double performance but almost double's cost. (over Mundorf Supreme) You are right that there may be another area where $'s are better spent than second Duelund. Johnk says better tweeters. I will be ready with all caps fully burned in by the time the mid caps come over from Denmark.
dgarretson
2,394 posts
 
Volleyguy, the question becomes-- given other constraints in the Klipsch-- how far is it worth taking these speakers without looking at new drivers, or even more fundamentally, evaluating the absolute potential of Klipsch relative to more recent stock or tweaked designs. I know it is your mission to find out how far these speakers can go. But at this point, if the thread is worth continuing, it would be nice to hear your praise of Duelund in context of the running costs of the Duelund upgrade, and in context of all other components in your system.

For example, in my own(balanced) system, from end-to-end I have substituted about 16 critical coupling caps (V-Caps TFTF & Mundorf Silver/Gold) in four line-level and amp components-- and I have yet to experiment with the speaker cross-overs. Notwithstanding your advocacy of speakers & source as making the greatest difference, all these changes in caps were "revelatory." So I'm saying look at the system as a whole. As expensive as these crossover parts are, if they come to as much as 25% of total system value, then doubtless you're missing major opportunities to make meaningful upgrades elsewhere.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Dgarretson, I guess it comes down to how good do I think the basic Klipsch design is? I believe very good. Arthur Salvatore website's eval's new and vintage gear. He only recomends three vintage speakers. The highest of all is the Khorn. This is competing against speakers costing many times more. (some up to 100k)

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Vintage.html#Other

quote from him
"Only three speaker designs of the distant past can hold up to today’s models in my opinion, the original Quad Electrostatic, the KLH Model Nine Electrostatic and the post 1970's Klipschorn"

He had moved the Khorns down from (the very strict credentials) to Class C (upper) from Class B. (by far the cheapest speaker in the range)

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Speakers.html#ClA

Arthur does say at some point he would love to hear a all out set of Khorns. Well I can assure a Duelund set is MILES better than any stock one. Enough to move them back up to Class "A" I am not sure but it is huge!

Dgarretson, I can hear your snicker at my system being not "balanced".

I am very much a person who believes in balance not $. My system as I said was an LP12, Lingo, Cirkus, Ekos II and Adikt. I know Linn guys who say why do you have a cheap (realative) cartridge on such an expensive arm. My answer is that is what the dealer has recomended to keep in "balance" and that a Keel would be better money spent than expensive MC. My pre is a Linn Kairn which is made to work with the amp which is a Linn Klout and the Lp12. Those three were made for each other. My IC are all Linn my speaker wire is all Linn.

So do I seem like a guy who goes nuts in one area? My system would be text book balanced by Linn. (the sound I like) My main speakers (well they were my main) were Linn as well. Do I think them the greatest speakers no! But a well balanced system will deliver much more for much less $. (everything single thing I own was made to work in unison with the other component)

I am a very cautious person who does not go off half cocked on a crazy idea. I really believe Steen was on to something here with the crossover being of immense importance.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Duelund in the context of other upgrades?

Dgarretson I have had one Duelund and one Supreme (both with 60hrs by now) I switched back to two Duelunds and the difference is very big indeed.

Instruments sound much, much more real and you lose an etched sound you get with the Supreme's.

Comparable from going from the NAD CD player ($600) to Linn Karik. The Karik is not worth much today so on a cost basis it is not expensive either. So if you compare another set of Duelund caps vs. a new Karik $3k+ (new) slam dunk, new caps. If you compare to a used $500-$700 Karik it is more interesting but I would still go for the caps. The Karik's are cheap and no longer in service by Linn and could break at any time and be largely worthless. I would hope the cap upgrade last for 20 years. (I used to think the Karik quite lousy compared to LP12 and it collected dust mostly)

What the caps do is make things sound more focused and wayyyy more real.

I would be real curious to here the person who put in Duleund's and thought them good but not worth the $?
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