Helomech, I never thought of the rating system in that fashion, but that is a very good analogy. Class "C" will get you from here to there, but not in luxury, or exceedingly fast.
Class "B" is most desirable, and can get you from here to there, very fast, and in a degree of luxury that would be quite comfortable.
While Class "A" would put a grin on any Audiophile's face, most certainly, all Audiophile's would not be able to afford it.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave, I thank you for your recommendations, and the only reason I'm not looking into them, is because my plate is full right now.
I just got a new cartridge, and you know what a b---h they are to install, plus the present project. I have discovered the way to progress in these endeavors is to pursue one at a time.
Just looking at this cartridge, and thinking about how fragile it is, plus the cost, makes me wonder if I'm not in my right mind to be in a hobby that requires the skill of a surgeon; is this a hobby?
I'm also building a table just for the turntable, which I have all the material cut out, but not assembled. Now that I have my list for the hardware store that will complete parts and assembly for these projects, I can proceed.
Yesterday, the parking lots were so crowded, that I drove around two of them and came back home. All was not a waste, I enjoyed the ride; Nancy Wilson, and Anita O'Day made for such wonderful company that I took the long way home.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave, I sent my "Grado Reference Master 2" in for repair, and they sent me back a new cartridge in a new case. You might think that was a good thing, but in reality it was a wash. The reason I'm mentioning this is because Joe Grado died last year, and that always means unforeseen changes when the head man dies.
I suspect the reason they sent me back a new one is because they have decided to quit repairing them. This is not the first time I sent them a cartridge for repair, and I always got my old one back, complete with my old case; whatever scars that case had on it were mine.
If you have anything "Grado" that you like, you should make whatever transaction necessary "now", in regard to repair or a new one. Only old heads know intimately why these things do the things that the do; "Grado" had a spirit, and now that the spirit is dead, it will become just another company trying to make "money"; along with that desire to make money will come the increase in price, without the pride of the quality of the product.
These names like "Grado", were much more than a name, they signified the "inner soul" of a product; some got it, and some didn't.
When I see "Native Americans" worshiping sacred spirits, I think about the sacred spirits that reside in certain cartridges. Although I most certainly can not afford the sacred spirits that reside in certain Japanese Cartridges, I am aware of them, and if ever I can afford one, I will commune with the sacred spirit that resides within.
Enjoy the music.
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Randy, thanks to you and Dave, the ideas are constantly flowing. Since Dave is going to build some of those, I'll eagerly await the results.
Take your time Dave; we're going to have the best treated listening rooms on this forum.
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Dave and Randy, all is not logical; I've had tube base traps in the front corners since day 1 to stop bass "rattle" or resonance, and it worked. I just placed both tubes in the right hand corner, and the center image moved to the left, which is what I want.
That tells me this is going to require a lot of experimentation, which will require a number of pieces. I've only got 2 ft of wall to work with on the left side of the room, the rest is glass door and drapes.
Maybe a diffuser next to the tube trap on the left side will work; it's for sure we're making progress, but I can see it will seem quite "illogical" at times.
Ain't this a lot of fun.
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Mesch, you're going in the right direction; if you say you hear Class "B", I don't doubt it. That's a class that is attainable with dedication and hard work, plus numerous tweaks.
Room treatment is an area I haven't investigated, consequently, I'm still learning about it; that means we'll all progress together.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave, according to what you are saying, I should apply more absorption to the right side of the room, in order to move the image to the left? Is that correct?
I think I have a CD with test tone frequencies, but I don't have a RatShack analog sound pressure meter. I use Parts Express for odds and ends, might they have one? Make a list of the necessary meters for this job, and I can place an order.
Thanks for the help.
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Sometime before getting into the high end, I visited a friend who had a rig with an equalizer. I didn't even know what an equalizer was or did at that time; but I knew it sure looked impressive. This thing had 20 slider switches, and lights blinking for left and right channels; it looked so impressive that I wanted one for that reason alone. "Look at my new equalizer"!.
"What does it do"? Just look at it; with all those multicolored lights blinking, isn't that enough?
With an EQ you could shape the music however it suited you; this gave you the power of being the band leader.
My "Phase Linear 4000" had turnover tone controls, dynamic range expander, plus noise reduction; it was really hot stuff (junk under the hood) Now of course I have a pre without any tone controls because I want to hear the music on the record, not recreate it; which gets us to my present speakers.
Most people have had at least a half dozen or more pairs of speakers since I finally perfected the ones I got; that's why I want some "different" speakers. But after carefully listening to my "none" speakers, I thought about the equalizer, and the "turnover" tone controls; that brought me back to where I first got into the high end with no tone controls.
The purpose of this thing is to hear the "artist's music", not mine; and the speakers I have perform that function like no others I've heard.
What I need, is friends with equalizers, and turnover tone controls so I can come back to my rig, and say "Home sweet home".
Enjoy the music.
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I've got all the necessary materials for the panels, now it's time to go to work. Will give everyone a holler when I'm finished.
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If ever there was a store I missed, it was Radio Shack. I loved those stores, and I can thank them for so many completed projects. Any time I was in a mall, I had to drop in Radio Shack and browse.
After some experimenting with the absorption that I already have, I discovered I may not need too much diffusion. Since all the problems seem to be on one side of the room, they should be easy to correct.
Thanks for all the helpful information; it's going to take a few days before completion of projects. I'll post notes on progress.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave, you're absolutely correct; in order to achieve Class "A" results, this must be treated the same as any other audio science.
Parts Express has a complete system for $300. which includes a tripod with measuring mic, and other stuff for audio measurements. After I do the guesswork thing, I'll fine tune the room accurately with measurement microphone.
Right now I'm comparing prices on acoustic cloth; apparently black is going to be the color, it's the cheapest.
Moving right along.
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Jafant, Audible Illusions Pre, and PrimaLuna Mono blocks amp; I made my own interconnect from wire that is no longer available. Speaker cable is Siltech for midrange speaker, silver and copper for tweeter, and a large wire of fine stranded copper for the woofer; each driver has it's own crossover, that allows me to run separate wire to each driver.
I just stumbled across a piece of wire for the woofer; "Stinger pro series pure oxygen free copper 12AWG"; it sounds impressive, (the name).
When you add it all up, the PrimaLuna amp provides a little warmth, but it's primarily neutral, allowing the music to come through without coloration.
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Dave, the stain and finish for the table is drying, and I'll start on the room treatment absorbers tomorrow. Just by experimenting with what I already have, I can see the image move from right to left.
This high ceiling with large beams running across, might eliminate the need for diffusers. I thought I could get cloth locally but that store is out of business, so I ordered some just a few minutes ago.
I can thank your suggestions for the success I'm expecting.
Enjoy the music.
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YO guys! I'm installing a cartridge; I would rather get bit in the but by a snaggletooth gorilla than install a cartridge; try turning a curve into a straight line, it ain't easy.
After experimenting with the minute amount of room treatment I got, I can see the results are going to be fantastic when I get the rest of the stuff by mail.
My table for the turntable came out good, now I'm bitchin about the cartridge installation;if you're not already in stay out, big men don't have tiny elf fingers, which is what I need about now.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave, installing a cartridge is always an adventure; little tiny wires, and big fat clumsy fingers, handling something as fragile as a toothpick, and costing 1K; any slip can break that flimsier than a toothpick cantilever; that's when I'm sweating in the Winter time.
This is tech talk, if anyone wants to inquire about cartridge installation I will engage them, but I'm not a good salesman for analog because it's too expensive, plus there is only a little wiggle room for saving money, and cartridge is not a place you can find it.
As far as bang for the buck, I never expected room treatment would take a person so far. By applying absorption in different places around the room, I'm able to visualize partially what it will be like when I make it permanent.
Since this will be overall sound, that means a big boost on the audio rating scale. I'll try to compare this with the dollars and cents increase in components, to have an equal increase in total sound improvement.
It can take several upgrades in components, meaning number of components, to get a substantial increase in total sound improvement. This will be an interesting comparison; especially if we are considering "room treatment" as one component.
Enjoy the music.
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That was some very good advice Dave, and I will heed it; I might add to that, keep the tone arm locked down when not in use.
I used a Shure tracking force gauge, which might be accurate, but it's awfully clumsy, so I ordered a digital tracking force gauge. While I never had any problems in all these many years I've had that gauge, it seems my hands aren't as sure as they once were, and to be fumbling with something that's going to be so close to the cantilever is not a good idea.
In this hobby, everything must be evaluated, including age; my hands will have to be twice as study, if I'm to do that modification I talked about.
This new cartridge is absolutely fantastic, I don't see why you sold yours; maybe they made improvements since then, or I haven't reached the stage where you are. Or did the yen for a low output MC take over.
I got a long story to tell if you've got the time to listen:
I sold my "Audiolab" pre, and the guy called back and said there was nothing wrong with it, but he just didn't like it. So I said OK, send it back like you got it, and I'll return your money. That was the best thing that ever happened.
Now I use the MM phono on the Audiolab; it's absolutely perfect for me, and it's also perfect for a lot of other people who rave about it in the UK. It does absolutely "nothing"; no noise, inky black silence, and it doesn't change the sound of the Grado, one iota. Most people talk about what their phono stage does, and I rave about mine doing absolutely nothing, but amplify the signal like it's not even there.
Everything completes my philosophy of; "Nothing but the music."
I'll get back with you, probably before I complete the room treatment; I'm still waiting on the acoustic fabric, until then;
Enjoy the music.
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Hello Dave, I've got all the material including the cloth, but now I have a bad case of the winter lazies; my get up and go, done got up and went.
Believe it or not, I bought this 2 inch thick, 4X8 corning insulation leaning up against the wall in the listening room, and I've got a fantastic sound stage, it seems to affect a broad range of frequencies, but not so much the base; which is just what I want.
Thanks again for the ideas.
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Dave, the "sound stage" is really taking shape in my room; for the first time, it's spread across the front of the room like it's supposed to be; not favoring the left or right side.
Bwaslo, I've got a really ugly temporary absorption panel in the back of the room, and that would be a good place to try your diffusor. Thanks for the idea.
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Stringeen, I only listened to Class "A" in emporiums that had room treatment up the "Ying Yang", and I was never disappointed. However I have listened to Class "A" rigs in homes that did not deliver Class "A" sound, I attributed that to the inexperience of the audiophile.
I recall a complete top of the line ARC electronics setup, with Theil speakers that was riveting, sounds that I hadn't been aware of, were emanating from "Santana Abraxas", my favorite album for 20 years, and they were clear and quite audible, plus they were coming from a stationary point in space; this was all in a high end emporium.
I was pressed for time when I visited an audiophile with a Class "A" rig, and couldn't help discover why he wasn't getting Class "A" sound, and I noticed a patchwork quilt choice of interconnects. I am a firm believer in uniformity of interconnects, that's because I see so many different philosophies in regard to the best. So many different, competing ideas, can not come out right.
I make all my own interconnects out of the same wire, except where something special is required, like Phono for example. I realize rolling your own is not for everyone, but they can still achieve "uniformity".
The places I went to had CJ and ARC, so you could arrange these two polar opposites however you chose, that guaranteed you getting the sound you wanted. Those places no longer exist in my neck of the woods.
I know exactly what you mean by "your room"; well I've got good news for you String, I just made a "giant step" without changing one component, and I still can't quite believe it.
Although I've been listening all morning, I still can't quite believe it; my room is filled up with beautiful sound, and I thought I was going to have to get some new big speakers to achieve this. Follow this part of the thread on "room treatment" and be amazed at the result.
Best of luck.
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Dave, if this much sounds that good, what will a little more sound like? I got the answer to that question just a few minutes ago; "Horrible"! This treatment will let you know in a hurry when you have done something wrong, and the good thing is, it doesn't cost much.
After adding too much absorption in the corners, everything sounded horrible, that means I've got enough absorption for sure; now to work on the diffusors.
Thanks again for the brilliant ideas.
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Dave, I always like to mention everything anyone does to improve my enjoyment of this hobby in any way, and what suggestion of theirs that I heeded, which made my life easier.
"The digital gauge is much better and less likely to damage your stylus than the see-saw gauge. Make sure that the one you bought is non-magnetic."
It must have been a very long time ago when I bought that " teeter totter" as you called it instrument for measuring stylus tracking force, because I don't remember having any problem at all with it; but now, it's just too shaky for these fumble fingers.
I bought a "Riverstone Audio" digital pressure gauge that was perfect, and so much easier. I checked the VTF with this gauge, and discovered it was too heavy; after re-calibrating the force to a lighter one, I could hear my cartridge thank me, and I thank you for the suggestion.
Enjoy the music.
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I had no idea room treatment was so important before now. Let me explain; I had a room imbalance, my right channel seemed to be louder than the left.
The first thing I did was increase the volume in the left channel, but something was still wrong. Check Pre; it's OK. Check amp; it's OK. Check speakers; they're OK. I don't know what else to check?
Now I know you know how much of a headache it was to check all of that in each one of those components.
Not until I took the steps outlined in this thread did I get a "balanced" sound-stage, plus a number of other problems solved that were always on the "back-burner".
If you haven't gotten involved in room treatment, I suggest you go through the part of this thread involving room treatment and be surprised.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave, I hope you're still out there somewhere. Here is the most ironic thing about this thread; I opened it talking about modifications, and although I have everything to do the "mod", I haven't started yet; I'm still working on room treatment, that's what I want to ask you about.
Everything sounds good, but I need a good "diffusor" on the left side of the room, and I was wondering which one you think is best?
Thank you.
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Thanks a bunch for your help Dave; I'll talk to them Monday.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave, I don't know what I would do without your help, I am in completely foreign territory. Now, each record is different; some are perfect, and some not so perfect; this is before I've added any diffusion. Today, a phono amp is coming, so I will evaluate after I've tried it.
Thank you much, and don't forget to;
Enjoy the music.
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