Devor - KEF - Vienna Acoustic – Wilson?

pokey77 > The three integrateds were played through Sopra 2s and it was the first time that I've heard that speaker sound good.

Blindjim > tubes usually make so so sounding speakers sound far better. Usually. If they can push them. (see my latest thread on mega watt amp & low imp spkrs what’s this all about and why). The current conspiracy to eradicate demonstrably, lower powered amps of any kind by speaker makers is seeing to that.

During the shoot out, did Kevin ever stop talking? Back in ’05 to ’07 as I was getting rid of my biases or just setting them aside for a bit, and looking into tubes I called upscale for info on tubes. Got to talk… er, listen to KD about them. Albert Von S was the same way. They talk. You listen. Maybe they will answer your Q. maybe not. However, it was usually interesting, but frustrating at the same time. Lol

I’ve listend to Deal’s youtube vids on a few things, mostly PL. youtube is a new venue IMO for gathering info from the ‘horse’s mouth’ as you get to hear designers and equipment makers , forum promoters, reviewers, etc. I like nearly all I’ve seen so far. The PSA input is very cool.

I suppose an item which concerns me on this amp & speaker stalk, is control of the bottom end on what ever speaker I like in all other respects. I’m possibly over emphasizing this as I feel adept control of the drivers a key to immediacy and realism.

That said, it worries me to keep 100wpc tube amps or less on the top part of the short list as I look at speakers. Sure, even substantially less watts will make most speakers produce noise. At some level. Some will sound decent too. A few given better matching will sound very very good. Although, until the power amp can fully embrace the speaker satisfying its needs fully, the best that speaker has to offer isn’t gonna be heard…. IMHO.

Stanley turrentine has a track which leads by a bass drum softly tapping to the beat. With 93db 6 – 8ohm units and a BAT 250wpc amp it was easy to hear this intro. With 60wpc EL34 monos on the same speakers it was invisible.

Bob james group Fourplay > Heartfelt > café l’amore, a woman whispers very softly as the percussion sets the mood. She speaks only a few words. ‘Fire’ is distinguishable. After that the words are less intelligible with less power.

Subtle meaningless cues of course, but it points out my inference for revealing more sonics with better control or more power. Either scenario tube plus SS amp or tubes throughout was were equally enjoyable.

I simply found this facet eye opening.

Best case scenario? Have two power plants available. . others may say have two entirely different rigs. I doubt I want to get that deep this go ‘round.

For me, ARC is not an option just as Van der’s are not.

Sure would hate to lean on a desire and ignore the truth being dealt, not by the amp but by the speakers actual needs.

Ten trillion speakers s out there and its fascinating how quickly that herd is culled when preffs and power needs and room size, and esthetics and budget come into the mix, ain’t it? Sheesh. still more than curious as to what might be done as a prelude to

erecting the main rig by getting in an EL34 amp (40 - ??wpc) PL? and a pr of 2 way monitors, Andrew Jones? All of modest heritages. Its why I vie PL as a sincere option. Its versatility with rolling tube types alone would be very educational. Maybe fun too. My EGGO says the office needs its own decent outfit.

What’s the real kicker here? That fella in the INT thread you sent me to, listened to the Gibbon X in False church VA. I stayed there when I had to go to D.C. back in April. I never even considered that area for auditioning gear. Lol. Amazing. It was a quick in and out legal affair anyhow. My mind wasn’t in the right place. But now I know. DC is very ‘spensive. Whoa.

@blindjim 

blindjim - "tubes usually make so so sounding speakers sound far better" Pokey77 - I have heard the Sopra 2s with tubes a few times and solid state alot. I think it was Rogue tubes if I recall correctly. In any event, it was very analytical and shrill. I don't think any electronics could put the Sopra 2s in my wheelhouse. But who knows?

blindjim - "During the shoot out, did Kevin ever stop talking?"  Pokey77 - Actually, he just described what he was doing with setup, what the system consisted of, and then would leave the room while we listened to each of the three integrateds. He neither tried to influence the attendees or foist a sales pitch on us. It was very fair. After the shootout was over, he pulled the covers and showed us the internal parts. He did point out what items were in each component but did not try to sway our opinion of build quality; he let us each do that on our own. In the end, the two PL products were very musical and they essentially sounded like the twice-as-expensive ARC product. And you know I love ARC gear.

blindjim - "Although, until the power amp can fully embrace the speaker satisfying its needs fully, the best that speaker has to offer isn’t gonna be heard…. IMHO." You are absolutely correct.

As I mentioned before. My most recent demo was Sabrina's with Nagra Classic Amp/Pre + dCS Debussy DAC. Also substituted the D'Agostino Classic Stereo amp in the same system. With the DAG it seemed as if the bass was over damped and lost it's texture. With the lower-powered Nagra both my friend and I felt the music and speaker was better served. I don't think that the Sabrina's needed all the control the DAG could give.

I think the PL option is a very good choice. I'd go with the Dialogue Premium HP if PL is found to synergize with your speaker choice. It was very good. Would make a killer office setup but I can tell you the PL stuff runs plenty hot; Kevin did mention that PL stuff runs the tubes very lighlty vs. most of the competition. You may have seen the story where a PL integrated was left on for at least six months. Kevin had him send in the tubes and they tested at 90%. The proof seems to be in the pudding.

I'd like to hear the Gibbon X and the new Super Nine. Hoping to see some comments show up here on the 'Gon soon.

Happy Sunday and happy search Jim

pokey77 >
…. Rogue tubes & Sopra 2s - it was very analytical and shrill. I don't think any electronics could put the Sopra 2s in my wheelhouse.

Blindjim > My only EXP with the Focal line was with their 900 series in a dismally poor setup. Krell HT amp, monster wires, yeech. On rep alone, I figured their upper lines deserved some attention. Focal can show with anyone’s elecs I suppose. I keep seeing them paired with VAC though. Hmmm.


….Kevin Deal did point out what items were in each component but did not try to sway our opinion of build quality; he let us each do that on our own.

Blindjim > Super! My jest of KD was not meant as a derogatory slight at all. (input for the thinner skinned demographic. lol)


…. In the end, the two PL products were very musical and they essentially sounded like the twice-as-expensive ARC product. And you know I love ARC gear.

Blindjim > ARC. I’ve been getting that impression.
My question here would be on the manner in which the PL was or were running as I thought they could be switched between SET and PP. were they in SET, or ultralinear – PP, in this comparison? I suspect the latter, not the former.


…. don't think that the Sabrina's needed all the control the DAG could give.

Blindjim > Interesting. Sonic or timberal accuracy IMO is not always one’s truest preff. Bass for EX below the low tones of piano and dog house bass or about 40Hz comes in thumps, whacks, and bumps, a lot. My first sub was well, ‘wooly’, compared to my Velodyne DD 15. Bass tones with tubes and loudspeakers in general was less pointed. Less leading edge, more emphasis on decays perhaps. Naturally this result can be ‘tightened’ up different ways. Depending on the recording of course. For quite some time, I actually enjoyed the less obtrusive softer ‘woolier’ lower end presentation. That is, until I experienced greater truth in that area.

I also found out in there somewhere, one can have ‘too much of a good thing’ now and then.

The bottom end does more than attend to its own precinct. It influences and can amend the mid bass and mids, removing some details and or reduces   or hampers transparency there as well. Most noticeably with vocals.


..…. PL option is a very good choice. …. the PL stuff runs plenty hot

Blindjim > This is why I wonder if SET was in play.
Past tube amps and Class A amps have shown me additional cooling is more than likely another area of need if I roll down that hill again.

Thru all the setups I’ve endured or been able to listen to, I’ve found the wires and if in the mis, Power line condidtioning are important areas to take notice of as to who’s who and where.

I’ve been lucky in that each of my own PLCs are all passive. Each time I’ve listened to remarkably expensive setups which use active power line conditioning or altering, I’ve periodically been underwhelmed. Something somehow in that mix was reducing the color within the tones. For lack of a better word, ‘bleaching’ the notes. Absorbing a portion of life notes should possess.

I’ve been reading up on Allmic, and Burning amps lately. A noteable hybrid or two, and what I can find online of Nagra.

My satisfaction will come from attaining what I believe music sounds like. Period. At the end of the day, IMO, tubes should have the luster tubes indemically demonstrate. Tube amps should not at all be found to duplicate SS. Ever. If a system is indistinguishable from one to the other, why do it at all?

Folks relent regularly on ‘distortion’ present with tube amps. So? Distortion is a viable part of what we hear in live music. Amplified or acoustic. This is inescapable. It’s the degree of distortion which should be contested, not its presence. Romance and euphony have their place. Although maybe not in every song’s recreation.

I want Def Lepoard and AC DC to resound without those attributes. Krall, Hartman, Coltrane, Martin, Koz, Holiday, Fitzgerald, well then yes, if it is received as a positive trait the tune can carry.

There in a nutshell is the dichotomy many including me wrestle with continuously. Adoring the traits SET amps present, but still desirous of speed, nimbleness, and honesty in a well heeled sophisticated coherent and cohesive production. The undeniable solution of course is to simply have two individual setups, one SET, and one simple, yes, but afforadable? Well, not immediately.

I’m toying with the notion of incorporating a TT source. Eventually. I”ve got a couple hundred LPs which might not yet be frisbies or Skeet targets. The enormity of expense in that area gives me a weak feeling in my stomach just thinking about it all. Wow. $4K just for a record cleaning device!! Good Golly Miss Molly!

Always see what wires and PLC is in the mix. They definitely contribute to what you are hearing.

With the correct tubes, am amp can sound and perform like it is something else entirely. If you aren’t careful you’re gonna talk yourself into those Sabrinas.

RE 9s & Xs (tens) yes. me too. I bet it will be next sprng or summer before info filters onto the various forums and mags about their comparisons..

I feel like we're kinda doing this backwards -- starting with four speakers and trying to see which ones you might like.  As I'm reading through responses I'm getting bits and pieces about what you like, what's important to you, and you're actually looking for in a speaker, but it's hard to pull it all together.  I think it would be more efficient and effective if you could summarize where you stand on these critical points so we have a more focused picture of what you're looking for, and then we'll be in a much better position to provide informed and targeted feedback and recommendations.  Just my $0.02. 

Soix > I think it would be more efficient and effective if you could summarize where you stand on these critical points so we have a more focused picture of what you're looking for.

Blindjim > many thanks. Let me know which points you need clarification on and I’d be happy to provide them.

My preffs and desires, and a general vicinity of what I’ll spend is pretty well outlined in my Keeper speakers under $25K thread and a similar one on amps costing $15K posted fairly close together. About a month or so ago.

My original intention was to put together a new or mostly from new pieces, a main system. Upgrading and updating from what I have left over and onto what is reputedly better now.

Two main areas are amps and speakers. Neither of which do I presently own class A items, as you put it, but will buy ?? in the not too distant future. Likely spring or summer 2018. Sooner if at all possible.

These four speaker makers interest me though they are not the only ones. I like the idea of tubes and reasonably eff speakers and have had that previously. This time I simply want it all on a bit higher level.

My system philosophy is source > power > speakers. In that order. More $$$ to less $$$$. Neither am I really opposed to buying used at any point however, given the amounts or levels of build and or quality, I’m a bit reticent to lay out five digit dough on pre-owned until I see it first hand… or it comes from an incredibly strong seller where I have recourse.

I’ve a few medical roadblocks in my path just now preventing me from traveling so there’s plenty of time to attempt to get a feel for some things and pondering the overall budget.

Naturally speakers and amps are not the whole shooting match as wires and racks or stands and so forth will be needed as will room acoustics.

I’d like very much to know about these listed herein, general presentations. As stated in the introduction. Are KEF & BW similar in sound and power needs? Are Vienna Acs warm or dead neutral? And do they really need loads of power? What about the Gibbon tens, I only know from specs they won’t need big amps, but some watts, yet nothing on their lower ends or tweeters presentations. I’ve heard a few Wilson’s inclduding Sophias I & II. A number of other speakers that I have not mentioned as I’m really not a fan given past auditions.

I would prefer a speaker system which can operate fully on amps with 200wpc and less outputs.if much less, all the better as tube monos might well be the direction I’d prefer to go.

That said, I’m not a tube ONLY guy. SS works for me too. The idea is to get as much of ‘they are here’ as is possible. If not that, then as much of “I am there’ as is possible.

I listen to everything but Rap – hip Hop – urban Jazz, and Electronica.

Looks are important. Maybe too much. Esthetically, I like each of the ones listed here. Others as well but felt getting a shot at hearing these would be a much easier task then some of the others I’m keen on like Martins or Verity’s just for example.

I’m not a card carrying detail freak. That said, I love a presentation that is jaw dropping foot tapping, all smiles, near tangible. Superb imaging and sound staging are high on my list, as is timberal accuracy. If it doesn’t sound natural across the bandwidth and have a bottom end that kicks, I’m not going to be too interested.

A super easy sounding tweeter is a real key. I’m real sensitive to highs and still have very good range of hearing so if its hot up top. I’m usually out quickly.

Won’t have enough room nor the disposition to bring in tall speakers. 4ft. or so should be sufficient. I’d use subs if all else in the speakers were top flight on all accounts but they had problems down below.
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Again, let me know what you would like me to further illuminate and I will.