Nealhood - Thanks for the tip on the Decware 685. I'll be honest - I haven't heard of it. But PLEASE put up a post regarding how it sounds. BTW - Where did you get yours? |
Oldpet, you might want to look into the Decware 685 player. It is $700 and includes a single ended triode tube stage driven directly from the dac chip output. No buffers, opamps, etc., to mess things up.
How does it sound? Well, I will let you know next week when mine arrives.
I don't mention this as being a sleeping giant or APL/Exemplar/Modwright killer as I am sure it is not. But, just another choice for those like me who have limited budgets. I would love to have one of APL or, the other units often in the limelight here but, even if I could afford it I tend to draw a line on prudence. Right now in an ever changing digital marketplace $4k for a CD player is outside that line for me. If I had any interest in SACD or DVD maybe not. But I don't. |
Hi Alex
Don't misunderstand, what i'm asking. It's not wether the APL 3910 is worth the asking price. It's simply - how far off of the performance mark, are the "bargains"?
I am not an electrical engineer, nor do I pretend to be, so I wouldn't know the difference in price of an expensive tube out put stage. I'm just an oridnary guy who happens to love high quality audio performance. Unfortunately, I am a high school music director, so my funds are, shall I say... limited. I WANT to try the APL3910 but, my reality says no. I would be pressing the financial envelope for an Exemplar 3910 @$3200. So, that leaves me with the "bargain" choices. It also brings me back to my question. How far away are the RAM's and Underwoods, from the Best of the Best?
I wouldn't presume to make the comparison between an APL and an orange. (pun intended. :-) )
Maybe The question should be - How much better are the RAM's and Underwood's than, not only 'stock' universals, but also CDP's of equivalent $$$
Be well
Paul |
Oldpet, we can not compare apples and oranges. The available "bargains" do not have expensive tube stages inside as Exemplar, Modwright and my 3910. This is the reason for the price difference.
More affordable all solid state (tube-less) re-design for the 3910 is now available based on the one I made to the Teac DV-50. Instead of tube output stage it will come with MOSFET Class "A" transformer coupled stage using Tamura (Japan) transformers. The mod will include my DAC with built in remote controlled attenuator, my Master Clock and various power supply upgrades using R-Core power transformer.
Regards,
Alex |
Jfz, here is the link to one of the US retailers. This machine is being distributed by TEAC Esoteric in Japan. Pretty awesome stuff.
http://www.aaudio.com/store/ProductDetail.asp?catID=38&subCatID=252&productID=318
Regards,
Alex |
Mikannen - Good question. At $3200 and $4200 respectively, the Exemplar and APL machines are pretty expensive. The RAM and Underwood units seem like bargains. I too, wonder how the 'bargain' Mods stack up. |
Aplhifi: I would very much appreciate your feedback on the Audio Desk Systeme. The vibration from my 2900 is significant sometimes. At first I thought it only a problem with SACDs (why would that be?), but then found a few Redbook CDs also created enough noise to be annoying. I thought what I was hearing was motor noise, but I think vibration is probably what it is.
Thanks!
John |
Hi Guys
Has anyone had a chance to compare all the players mentioned against the modded Denon 2900/3910 from the likes of Reference Audio Mod and Underwood? How do they stack against the DV50 and the Exemplar and APL machines?
Thks |
I wish I could participate in comparing these units, but Texas is just too far away. My Exemplar/Denon 3910 is so superior to anything else I have ever heard that I just find it hard to believe there are better units. Its dynamics and fidelity to the recording event continually cause me to drop everything and just listen. I should say this is only after 300 plus hours on the unit. |
If you fellows around Chicago are interested in a get together here after CES for listening and comparisons, I'm up for it. Sorry I had to cancel the Dec. 19th thing.
Brian |
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Dbld, AVGURU and the rest of the Chicago group really need to hear the 3910 again as it is night and day compared to what they heard in the past.
Regards,
Alex |
Springbok10, the Audio Desk Systeme is stand alone machine you can buy for about $600. I received mine today and will report on what it does shortly after I bevel a few of my favorite CDs.
Denon reliabilty has been great so far.
Regards,
Alex |
Alex,
So can you place this Audio Desk System in the 3910 with your other mods?
Do you have more problems with Denon transports than other makes? |
Thanks Alex.
Hey Chicago boys - Any chance you can tally-up some sort of basic ranking of the players you have auditioned so far? Avguru...since you began this thread maybe you would be the most appropriate to do this job.
You guys have gone through so many players, and this thread is so long now, it is a little difficult to do a synopsis. Guru began with the DV-50 which bested many players for him including the Theta Compli. I remember that one because I was trying to get a listen to one. Once you all got together with 711smilin, the APL 3910 has not only bested the DV-50 (with ease apparently), it has become a bit of the thread favorite.
Now Alex has done a DV-50, but maintains that the 3910 still sounds better. However the DV-50 was all SS while the 3910 uses his tube outputs. My question then is; how close are they in sound performance?
There is a lot of fun and useful information here, but my head is about to explode trying to keep up with it all. I have also come to the realization that this quest truly is never ending.
Dave |
Dbld, the DV-50 does not use memory buffers for CD, so it spins 1x. The 3910 spins at least 6x.
Regards,
Alex |
Thanks for the info Guido and Alex. Quite interesting.
So Alex, does the 3910 spin the disk much faster than the DV-50?
I was told something similar about Meridian gear, and how it uses a 10x drive and buffers the data. I demoed a G98 for a weekend and was really impressed and I was simply feeding my pre/pro via a cheap Stereovox coax. |
Dbld, the Denon 3910 has the same transport as the previous 2900 model. The Servo control is also the same (Sony chips). The only difference is the DVD processor being ESS in the 3910. It takes care of CD and DVD processing and uses large SDRAM memory buffer. In the case the machine was not reading 192K discs, the ESS processor might have been defective. Since the 3910 is a machine like all other Digital players, anything can happen to it at any time, there are no guarantees. If you look at the warranty information on my site, you will see that I offer 1 year parts and labor for the re-design (mod) part. Also, during that year, if something else happens to the player, I will not charge labor but just unmarked parts cost. After the first year, the labor will be symbolic for any repair plus, again, unmarked parts cost. Since I am used to $200K + Sony Broadcast and Pro machines, there is nothing that can happen to 3910 (or any other machine) that I will not be able to fix as it looks like a baby toy to me
:-)
The 3910 spins the media much faster than a CD player because its playback is non-linear. It fills SDRAM memory buffer and the data is being clocked out of it. This results in dramatically reduced jitter coming from the transport, but also vibrations with not perfectly balanced media. Even the best transports in the world are still suspended on rubber or silicon dampers. Although you will not hear or feel the vibrations with these more expensive machines, if you can put your hand on the actual transport inside it still vibrates. Heavy transport is not the solution; the solution is the Audio Desk Systeme from Germany which bevels the edge of the Media. Together with other benefits, the best that I like about this little miracle is that it takes the center hole of the media for a reference and perfectly balances it. This results in NO vibrations whatsoever even if you play your CD on a boombox transport at X16 speed. The sonic improvement is dramatic.
Regards,
Alex |
DBLD, that may be an inherent problem with lower end transport. That is one of the reasons why I am so attracted by machines that use the VRDS transport mechanism. I am excited to see what Alex comes up modifying the UX-3, and hope the other modifiers will follow with full mods on similar units |
Have any of you guys experienced problems with Modded Denon units that are not repairable?
I tried a Stock 3910 a while back, and it would not play my 192kHz DVD-A discs. What if something like this happened to a modded unit?
I have also heard of transport issues with Denons, and actually had one issue with the 3910 I was trying for a while. I had a disc that was a little off balance (it played just fine on other players, but with a mild rumble) that when played in the 3910 sounded like it was going to self destruct within the player. It eventually stopped trying to play it, and ejected the disc.
Dave
PS - perhaps after New Years I will write a bit more clearly...sorry all |
Oldpet, Paul, the package that includes the 3910 machine and free shipping is currently $4200. Yes, the unit retains "universal" status and Video.
Regards,
Alex |
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Alex - I've been following this thread for a while. Please excuse me for being so abrupt, but - How much does your modded 3910 cost? Does the machine retain it's "universal" status?
Thanks
Paul |
Reb1208, sorry to say but you can not roll tubes as my circuit will not allow it. I have a box full of the best available NOS tubes (about $3K worth) and have tried all. I have yet to hear anything else that sounds close to the 6H30.
If you hear the machine with the 6H30 tube stage, you will realize that you don't need to roll tubes.
Regards,
Alex |
Alex, I would like to know if your 6H30 circuit can support these two tubes. 6N1P and 6CG7. I use a tube linestage designed to take 6H30 and can sub, without any problem those two tubes. And if you have a bias or filament pot inside, the 6922/6dj8 should also work. For many people, not being able to roll the 6H30 will be a big negative. |
Aldavis, no offence taken! I use the term "bloom" because it is commonly used for the added warmth from tube stages. I am not the guy who looks for really creamy, flabby and tubey sound. The 6H30 tube I use in my designs is also known as "the solid state tube". Not many are using it because it does not add the usual "bloom" and soft tubey sound signature as many other tubes do. I would hate to mask existing problems with tube stage that rolls off the highs and "blooms" so you don't hear the harshness. I take a different approach of having everything as right as possible before the tube stage. Then, the transformer coupled 6H30 adds just more naturalness and musicality to the sound. Why is that? It is becuase the 6H30 is Super-linear tube which does not have much gain. This allows for design without negative feedback. The end result is dynamic, transparent, 3D solid-state-like sound with added high frequency sweetnes and liquid midrange coming from the tube. Since all passive or active components add noise and distortions, my tube stage isn't free from that - it adds them too. The question is if you would like to make things worse using preamp.
Regards,
Alex |
APLHIFI,
At no time did I dispute your reasoning for a shorter signal path. My question regaurded your own use of "bloom" causing tubes. You have not explained why you use them. My assumption is that they are used intentionaly to alter the sonic signature to a more pleasing "bloomy" one. I personaly don't judge this one way or the other. Regaurding the use of a preamp I would say that it would be a net negative only if you have a better way to perfectly add gain. I want to make it clear that I'm not attacking you or your products.
Best Wishes,
Jim |
Aldavis, it is very simple to understand. EVERY single component on the signal path adds noise and distortions. The passive components (resistors, caps, transformers) add less, but the active components (transistors, tubes, etc.) are adding more. This is the reason why more complicated circuits require sufficient amount of negative feedback.
In conclusion, all of your audio components add noise and distortions (some more some less). If you like the bloom of your CJ preamp and this combination sounds better to you, then listen that way. Of course, again, this will be added noise and distortions.
Regards,
Alex |
Tbg, the digital attenuator I am talking about is non-decimating. I do not hear the problems you've experienced with dCS gear.
Regards,
Alex |
Springbok, I cannot say anything about the other moders, but Exemplar did assume the warranty lost from Denon when a part went out on my 3910. Unlike TEAC, the unit was repaired and on its way back the same day it was received.
I do think that when you choose the mod. route you can expect fewer waranty repairs as part of the money you are saving going this route. I chose the Exemplar not because it was far cheaper than my EMM or dCS gear but because it was better. |
Without doing a shred of research into the matter, I can confidently tell you that Denon and Sony will not cover the warranty work by modders. This has not stopped me from ordering a modded 3910 from Modwright. I have had 3 other units modded by Dan, and find him to be highly trustworthy and reliable. |
Excellent question, Aldavis. I too, share your confusion, since my Atma-Sphere MP-1 adds similar musically pleasing "distortion" to my DCC2's output. I, too, await Aplhifi's response. I have an unlinked but important question to modders of Denon, Esoteric, etc: Jolida covers any mod work done by PartsConnexion (sold by Underwood HiFi); so, do the big boys, Denon, etc cover warranty work done by Exemplar/APL/Modwright, etc? - it would certainly make purchasing a modded unit less of a financial/repair gamble. You all know that it is more reassuring to have a big known brand-name stand behind any repair issues than a single person who may be busy/incapacitated/away to undertake a rapid repair of a modded unit. My transport on the Esoteric DV-50 just broke and I was told by TEAC that it would take 2 (two) working days to fix it!! Can individual modders undertake this? This is not a contentious troll, but of real world importance to potential buyers who want to know that their newest and best unit paid for by hard-earned bucks will be looked after in a timely fashion. |
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Thank you Metralla, your new info is very welcome. It adds a whole new twist to the field of moded units. |
APLHIFI,
Help me understand. Tube preamps like my CJ 16 s2 adds artificial "bloom" (distortion). Your use of tubed output stage (vs ss) changes the sonic signature to a more "musical" one (which people seem to like and is somehow not distortion). My simple brain needs help on this one. I certainly won't upgrade to the ACT-2 until I fully understand the added "noise,distotions,and bloom" comment.
Merry Xmas
Jim |
Guidocorona writes: Springbock10, yours is the $64B question. Moded units are not balanced, except for one APL3910 version which has XLR active outputs. Not a classic balanced design with duplicate circuitry, though: the 'balance' signal is created through phase splitting. Some other modded units are balanced. Rare - but they are out there. I believe that Allen Wright does have a balanced option for the mods he does to the VC24/VC24+ digital filter chip equipped Sonys (SCD-1, SCD-777, SCD-555, SCD-C333, DVP-S9000) and this is a significant extra cost (almost double), as there are many more components - its a double module. I am sure this is a fully differential stage - can't imagine Allen taking a shortcut. I know he was offering this at one stage, but have not checked his web site to see if he still has this option. My XA777ES, modified by Ric Schultz, has a fully balanced output stage; multichannel capability has been disabled. I would not be surprised if Kyle of Reference Audio Mods has not built a modified Marantz or something with balanced outputs using the Audio Consulting traffos, but I am not certain by any means. Regards, |
SPRINGBOCK10: the EMM DAC/pre was optimized to work with the EMM transport. Unless you wait for the transport, you will never know whether the pair will work and do magic for you. |
Springbok, I think your aversion to having a mc unit but using only the stereo left and right output is a tad illogical, but I fully understand your desire to play to the best features of your preamp. Does the DCC2 have balanced outputs? I had only the DAC6 and know the DAC8 has only balanced outputs. I agree that your insistence on balanced outs does limit your options. I would also strongly urge you to avoid the Phillips sacd 1000. It maybe that the old Luxman sacd player had balanced outputs and there is one for sale with Exemplar mods., but the Exemplar 2900 is far superior and the Exemplar 3910 embarasses it . Life is tough.
Merry Christmas |
Alex, in the digital domain, do you not lose information with declining volume setting. At least with the dCS gear, lower volumes in the digital domain sounded like they had a substantial loss of resolution.
With the H-Cat there is no added distortions, noise, or frequency alterations. |
Tbg, I would agree too if it comes to the classic volume controls used in some current digital players. Let's say you have the best volume control built in your digital source which is a stepped attenuator with HOLCO, VISHAY or other exotic resistors. Let's assume the attenuator is about 10kOhm end to end. You will usually listen at 12 - 1 o clock which results in about half way trough the attenuator. This means that your output impedance will be about 5kOhm (kind of high). The result is lack of dynamics, added noise and smeared frequency response. Every time you turn that attenuator, it will change the output impedance of your machine. You can basically hear a sonic difference on every step since the output impedance is changing. This is the reason why when you buffer it with preamp it will sound better. The preamp has high input impedance and constant low impedance output (about or less than 200 Ohms) capable of driving your cables and amplifier. With attenuation done in the digital domain, there are no such negative effects as the output stage of the machine is directly connected to your amp through the IC cables - just like a preamplifier. The output impedance is constant and there are NO added components to the critical analog signal path.
Lastly, regardless of how perfect your preamp is, it would be best if it's not on the signal path. Now, if you like the added noise, distortions and "bloom" of a tube preamplifier this is up to you and your taste...:-)
Merry Christmas!
Alex |
Tbg, I mean no multichannel, and, having a preamp-amp system (Atma-Sphere) designed to run fully balanced, it seems anathema to me - maybe illogically, but intuitively -not to use this feature. So, are there still many units?
Please name any other than Esoteric X-01/P70 (I am very obtuse:) But need to decide, as I have a DCC2 sitting alone and either need to sell it while it is still unblemished and virginal or commit myself to the indefinite wait for its mate. |
Springbock10, yours is the $64B question. Moded units are not balanced, except for one APL3910 version which has XLR active outputs. Not a classic balanced design with duplicate circuitry, though: the 'balance' signal is created through phase splitting.
You may want still to look at the Esoteric X-01 which in my opinion still sounds Devine: balanced two channels, multichannel RCA, Redbook/SACD only, solid state (no tubes. Provision for external DAC expansion. Provision for external clock input. Must use a preamp with it. You should be able to connect an external tube-based DAC like the Zanden, which on aGon seems to go for approx 5K.
Noone has conducted an A/B comparison against EMM yet. From the reports I have read about EMM and my experience with X-01, you may find the midrange of X-01 to be more full bodied than EMM, but that is only a hypothesis of mine.
MGOTTLIEB is using X-01 as a transport for the DCS stack. He apparently found that the DCS stack in itself may have a little more 'sparkle', but the X-01 to his ears is a better transport than the Verdi for the Elgar/Purcell combo. I have heard the DCS tristack and the X-01 on different systems at different times and still prefer X-01. Let us remember though the words of the great Aloysius Q. Schmaltzenstein Gavronsky, who once wrote that ". . . opinions--just like ephymeral Beauty--are found painfully planted only in the bleary eyes of the foolish beholder!" Or audiofool, say I. |
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Springbok, I share your exhaustion with this list. I think apart from your requirement for balanced outputs, there are many alternatives. I am unsure what you mean by 2 channel only. Does it mean no multichannel or having alternative 2 channel outputs? I have yet to find a player that does not sound better through a active preamp. My recommendation would be to listen to several units, hopefully in your own room and make a choice. |
AVGURU, Sorry for the delay! I am so busy, my bed time moved to 5:30 - 6:00 AM.
To be honest with you, you will need to hear the modded DV-50 for your self and find out if the problems you are talking about remain. In any case, with the $1495 all solid state mod, the DV-50 is still not up to the Denon 3910 performance with the latest mod revision. The Denon is just incredible! I am sure that you will find the time to listen to 711's Denon 3910 again in the near future and give us your impressions. It will be really interesting.
Merry Christmas!
Alex |
Can one of you gurus summarize for me, now, after all these record number of posts, a perceived qualitative alternative (at least "as good" whatever that means) to the EMM set-up that has:
1) Fully balanced outputs
2) Tubes
3) Audio 2 Channel only
4) SACD and redbook ability
5) Ability to sound better through a preamp
if so, you will save me deciphering 380 posts and I would be most grateful!
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Guido, From what Alex and Jack have told me about the APL DV-50, the multi-channel outputs and video section are untouched. It is only a mod on the single ended "high-quality" stereo outputs. These outputs can be used as the front channels of multi-channel listening though. The balanced outputs are disabled.
Dave |
Avguru,
One thing to consider is a tube preamp. I use a C.J. and I feel it adds to the musicality . Guido : sorry man , I'm a lousy typist . |
AlDavis,
Thanks for your response. I wish I could say for sure that the X01 was "fuller sounding" than the UX1. I know both are voiced on the brighter side and not as warm as the DV 50.
I auditioned the X01 on a really warm system (see my previous review) and that may have hidden some of the issues I heard with the UX1. In talking to Marc Michelson at Soundstage (he reviewed the DV 50, UX1 and X01 side by side) he told me he felt the X01 was about 20% better than the UX1 which is a lot of improvement when talking audio.
What I do remember is when I brought my DV 50 to the dealer for a direct comparision to the X01 it tore it a new "you know what" and I was flabbergasted at the differences. Not even close. The UX1 was also signifcantly better but I didn
't leave that demo with the same "overwhelming feeling of superiority" that I did when I demoed the X01.
Yes, you are correct that I am particularly enamored with tubes right now. The best non-tube digital just seems (imho) to get better at doing the things audiophiles love to talk about: soundstaging, imaging, increased detail, etc but still fail to sound more musical.
When I say musical I'm not talking "analog" sounding. That's easy to achive even in a digital cdp. All you have to do is voice the player more towards the mid-range, eliminate some of the detail and soften up the high's by rolling them off. Some of the high end Marantz players, Lector, etc know how to perform this trick very well.
I don't want to just "hear" the music sound better or more analog. I want to "feel" it...the emotion, palpability, etc. I want images to feel as though they're right in front of you. Peforming for you in person. Tubes can do that.
I want very much for the Esoteric to take me where I want to go because I love their products, technology, build quality, etc. But at $13,000 a cd player should do more than what I heard from the UX1. Right now, I haven't heard anything close to the modded players other than the DV 50/Audio Aero Capitole Dac combination I alluded to at the end of my last post.
That sounded unbelievable but I didn't get to hear it on a variety of music..only jazz. But if it sounds good on all types of music that may be the route I go. It would give me the superior redbook sound I'm looking for while keeping the ability to play the high rez formats. The DV 50 sounds very good in SACD and DVD-A (not as good as the UX1 or X01) but I could live with it.
My only problems/concerns with the modded players has to do with the re-sell value and some of the quirky operational features (built-in digital volume controls, disabling of some features/functions and most of them sound best direct to the amp. I like having a pre/pro and don't want to see it rendered useless in 2 channel).
AVGURU |
Aldavis, I suspect you may be correct about X-01. By the way, may I ask you to put one space-char after each period? I am using a speech synthesizer to read the text and the poor creature cannot use your periods for prosodic control unless you do follow each with a space. If you heard it, it sounds like 'stream of consciousness.' Thanks, Guido |
avguru,
The ux1 audio is the same as the upcoming ux3 and x03.I'm guessing that the x01 will 'fill out' some with twice the chips.I'm really looking forward to your x01 ux1 comparison.From what I'm hearing from you, however,your love of musicality I bet you'd be happiest with a tube output stage what ever your ultimate choice.Other things may change the extraction of info but a tube output will change the sonic signature.If a "musical sound " is what you want it's an option.APL apparently does a nice job with these .Just a thought.I'm thinking about a ux3/tube mod option myself down the road.I currently own the dv 50 and share your feelings. |
Fab review AVGURU! Just from memory, do you have a feel on how UX-1 is different from X-01? If you consider the moded DV50 keep in mind that at least at this time Alex is disabling the XLR balanced outputs. He is using 2-channel RCA outs only. Multi-channel and video may be disabled as well. |
711,
Didn't know you were back in town. Good to see you back on the forum! I've had the UX1 at my home for the past few days and will be taking it back tomorrow. I was going to bring it to your house for a shoot-out with your newly modded 3910 but Alex told me he has it again for a small modification. I guess you'll be recieving it by this weekend or the early part of next week. We'll get together (all of us) as we originally planned.
Regarding spending $$$'s, I'm not eager to take a chance (and potential bath) on a modded player unless I can hear it upfront and know I'll be happy for a long, long time.
I'm not looking to buy a modded player and then flip it after a short period of time. I want to buy a player I can be happy with for 3-5 years. Once I find that player I will be off Audiogon for a long time and just enjoying the music!
I need to hear your new modded 3910 as I felt Jactoy's Sony Modwright 9000ES was superior (i.e more musical)than both your Exemplar 3910 and the APL 3910. An even more attractive option for me (in terms of $'s) is to have Alex mod my DV 50.
I'm hoping to make a business trip to Houston in the next two weeks where I can hear the DV 50 Alex just modded for Jack.
We'll talk soon!
AVGURU |
