Is it time to just quit?

No problem. Two guys reconnecting. good things.. All OK by me.

Hey Elizabeth. Ive been in a similar situation before. When I was low on funds I would reposition my speakers or change the acoustics of the room or move my listening chair closer or farther. Or try cheap tweaks. When I get in a funk I realize I'm critiquing my stereo and trying to be a perfectionist and not listening to the music. When I was 10 I remember the joy music gave me on my first stereo. A $5 AM transistor radio. Now I have built a stereo over the last 46 years that's 10,000 times the cost. Since being out of work from surgery for 5 months I listened to tons of music. So much that I'm a little tired. I just started back to work this week. Maybe its a time to unplug from all music for a week from any sources and start a little fresh with music you haven't heard in a while. I'm also well aware of my moods and when I lose interest in music thats the first sign I'm depressed. For me with the stress of the holidays and with the possibility of SAD it can be a downer. However I always feel great each autumn for about a month and music is beautiful!! Not trying to be nosy in your personal affairs. Your love of music will come back 
.

Last night I got into the moving things around rut. Moved listening position around a bit. Each time it was like "oh, that's better" but after a couple or more moves I realized it was just different. Primarily the sound stage, nothing else changed really. Then I thought about charting the sound stage on paper for each position. But then, after moving back to my original position I realized that none of the changes improved my enjoyment of the music even though they did change the sound stage. That's when I knew I was listening to my system and not the music.

So I sat back, in the original position (which I had deemed to be best just a month ago), closed my eyes, sipped some coffee and enjoyed the music. The system vanished and it was great.

That’s why I oft say trial and error can only get you so far. It’s worse than trying to find a needle in a haystack. The best you can possibly hope for at the end of the day is something you can live with but certainly not the best possible sound. The trial and error method is like trying to solve three simultaneous equations in four or five unknowns. Notice I’m not (rpt not) saying don’t use your ears. But do it in a methodical way.

The only reliable and most effective way to deal with speaker placement and or room acoustics treatment placement is using the speaker placement track on the XLO Test CD or similar test CD. HINT most speakers are placed too far apart, the thinking being that produces the best soundstage. The ideal speaker locations are of course speaker and room dependent, but generally speakers should be closer together, not farther apart. Start off with say, four or five feet apart and work slowly outward, using the TEST CD.

I have had my speakers in approximately the same position for many years. When I got a new (better) DAC i was using a great recording to dial in the location. This entailed slight movements of only a few inches, slight angle adjustments. Still within the average placement of my previous Magnepans. Now I have the spot written down (so I can move them and get them back quickly) 18" (touching edge from side walls. inner (tweeter) edge 42" from back wall, outer edge 58.5" from back wall. I did move them two inches father from the side walls a few months ago.. a few recordings just had too much separation. (The two inches did not harm the ones that were fine with the old wider spread.)                  
IMO sometime it pays to try something new. Sometimes the grass is green right where things are.

@elizabeth if you don't mind me asking what was the great recording to dial in the location of your speakers did you use?
I'm always looking for good ideas.
Thanks in advance...

@geoffkait - Hey Geoff. I was looking on Amazon at the track list for the XLO Test CD. I don’t see any particular track called "speaker position". Which track do you use for setting speaker position? Also, are there instructions, regarding placement of speakers, in the liner notes for the CD? BTW here are the test tracks listings:

1. Technical Tracks: Channel Identification
2. Technical Tracks: Voice In-Phase
3. Technical Tracks: Voice Out-Of-Phase
4. Technical Tracks: Clap Track
5. Technical Tracks: 3 1 5 Hz Test Tone
6. Technical Tracks: ’Prof.’ Johnson Does Something Spatinal
7. Technical Tracks: Demagnetizing Sweep
8. Technical Tracks: Demagnetizing Fade
9. Technical Tracks: System Burn-In
10. Music Tracks: Mono, In-Phase
11. Music Tracks: Mono, Out-Of-Phase
12. Music Tracks: Stereo, Out Of Absolute Phase

Thanks.........

Ani DiFranco Same title album, (debut) 1990 Righteous Babe Records. For a first album amazing clarity and from the sound... $$$$ recording equipment used.                           
Typically 'unknowns' first recording get ho-hum to poor recording equipment and damaging mastering for the first album. Not here.                             

Re the XLO Test CD, the “speaker placement track” is the out of phase track. The instructions are spoken by Professor Keith Johnson, “The best sound will be when you hear the sound coming from all around you, with no particular direction. The best sound when you’re in phase will be when you have the most diffuse sound when the system is out of phase.”

Thanks Geoff!

For me, I found I was addicted to the excitement of opening a new brown box.
It was that, "Six year old on Christmas morning" feeling.

Then the best thing imaginable happened to me. I lost 95% of the music in my Mac Mini. I switched to streaming and lost the desire to buy new equipment because when I listened to my Mini I listened to the same stuff over and over and over, constantly critiquing.  I wasn't enjoying. It wasn't fun anymore. It was work. 

Since I've had this awakening, I've realized how much of a racket the high end is. It's a disgrace what manufacturers are charging. 

If you think $2,000 for an interconnect is reasonable, what would your reaction be if your wife came home with a $,2000 mink coat?

I'm out.

My 80’s vintage NAD 7020 that I use with my downstairs TV finally died.

Since I do not use this setup very much I decided to cheap out and try this before dropping more $$$$$s on an infrequently used setup:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076XSBCCL/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Hooked it up yesterday and gave it a spin streaming from Spotify and my music server. Speakers are vintage Boston A40s I refoamed a couple years back.

Yowsa! That was very good sound quality for a total investment of ~ $100. The 2018 remaster of The Beatles sounded better than ever! Most impressive!


And this thing is tiny, about the size of a pack of cigarettes. Made in China, modern technology in play with both the gear and recording......makes you wonder.....
It’s cheap enough that any audiophile might give it a try before dropping way bigger bucks on an amplifier.

Next time maybe I’ll try a similar cheapo tube amp and see what that can do these days..

Looks pretty well made but if it does not last long no big deal to replace.


I might even listen to that setup more often now. Very easy to stream to from any bluetooth enabled device......

In any case this is the kind of budget oriented competition for peoples hifi dollars that is out there nowadays.


They could probably have blown these things out the door at Capital Audiofest or any audio show for that matter by playing it and then showing people where that very respectable sound quality came from, how small, and how inexpensive,  but probably small fries compared to the volumes of these kind of things sold on Amazon, ebay, etc...

Maybe it is time to quit buying stuff if you’ve reached the point with your system that you really enjoy listening to it. It’s not surprising you’d start to think about this, especially if you’ve been in the hobby for a long time.

From the number of posts you have made, you must like doing it. Why is it less satisfactory of late? Perhaps it’s time for some new interests?

Enjoy the music!

Listen to your car stereo and not your home systefor a while . When you listen back to your home stereo you will go wow and have greater appreciation for it.

Pretty nifty little amp Mapman
And for a grand sum of $70?
Makes you wonder just how much we have become accustomed to audio snobbery.
$70? 
Would not even buy me a fuse in current mentality mode.

Hmmm....
🤔🤔🤔

I've never responded to any kind of post on audiogon.  Your's is the first.  Why not take some time building your music collection and exploring new music... FOR FREE.  I live on pittsburgh and I decided awhile back to go through all the cd stacks in all the major libraries of pittsburgh.  It took a couple years but I can tell you what I did and how.  It revolutionized my music collection and my experience of music as much,  if not more,  than spending thousands of dollars.  I can compare because I did both,  the library thing AND the spending thousands of dollars thing.  If you're interested in my tips pm me.  . 

I want to reiterate, I have no plan, idea, notion nor interest in NOT listening to music. Somehow the original message was perhaps misleading. The only thing I would maybe thinking of. possibly was stop posting here, and then whining about Paypal hitting me with the 'VERIFIED' thing. So no more buying used stuff,via CC.                                
I know folks tend to gloss over what they read, and interpret into the written message things that are not actually there.                 
So no worry, I am just fine about my stereo and listening to music. 100%.                  
I actually feel confused why folks think that, though  re-reading my original post I can see the  not clear way I wrote about it.        
And really, as far as Paypal snafu, I should stop, and just listen to what I have.. (which I am and will be doing)   ((Though naturally I have long and EXPENSIVE list of stuff I still want to add to my stereo)) 
And the nice comments from well wishers makes me feel good and thank you again.

Why not sit down in your listening chair ( couch) and stop to think a bit. Why am I involved in this hobby? To gather the most expensive and arguably, better or best new equipment or model that has been just released? 
Or— because I love good music and it is always swirling around in my mind. If you feel ‘depressed ‘ cause you’re spending to much and possibly, need to HAVE the latest update or ( lol) buy a new amplifier for $18,000....- after you sell your 3rd , 6 month old Preamp for $7,000 —— you’re in this hobby for the wrong reasons! Or better yet, enjoy and read about equipment; and how damn silly MOST AUDIOPHILES ARE: which could include me..? I dare not say!! But I’m having a few exciting new pieces of gear coming up for “ true critical evaluation” quite soon! Come on by!! https://www.thesoundadvocate.com

Hey @elizabeth - Here's an idea to maybe help with your enjoyment of listening to music, continue posting on A-goN and not spend money.

Join us on the music related threads here on AudiogoN. This is where all the cool kids hang out (we know you're a cool kid because we know what kind of car you drive ;~) ) and it doesn't cost a dime.

Check out these threads and consider participating. Would love to learn more about your music collection/selections:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/whats-on-your-turntable-tonight

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-are-you-streaming-tonight

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-s-in-your-cdp-tonight-the-minority-report

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/whats-playing-on-your-system-today

Hope to always see you here on AudiogoN and would enjoy seeing you on the music threads.

Do we do this for the love of equipment? Or, the love of music? If it is equipment, we will never be satisfied.

Elizabeth,
Few people on this forum deserve the respect that you've earned. Perhaps it's time to simply enjoy the music, but not walk away from this community. Your decency, knowledge, and experience would certainly be missed by ME and I simply won't have it!  =)Honestly, from what I've read so far, you seem to have a magical rapport with everyone and unanimous support. That's rare and it would be a shame if you deny yourself of that.

Elizabeth.

I have never posted on this forum, or any other forum for that matter. But, I am a frequent reader of several audio and music forums from which I’ve learned boatloads about both system building and music. I want you to know I have found your comments insightful and useful in my exploration of this hobby and I feel certain other silent readers agree. Thank you. 

Like you, I’ve been through periods of malaise, frustrated by the elusiveness of that perfect note, as it were. Like others who have responded to your original comment, I turned several years ago from buying and selling principal components to focus largely on tweaks, which have improved my system significantly while offering opportunity to participate more actively and “creatively” in hobby. It’s been liberating, instructive and satisfying. Tweaking helped me understand that that perfect note is merely an idea we chase but never catch.

Finally now, I have determined that my system is finished. There likely will come a time when I again want to explore new technologies and equipment. But, for the moment, aware as I am of its limitations, I love my system and have turned to the “other side” of the hobby - listening.  Like Springsteen’s “spastic’s reelin’ perfection”, I’ve allowed myself the luxury of believin’ my reelin’ system is the perfect expression of the music I love.  And so I listen happily, forgiving the system its limitations and failings , as I do with all things I love. 

Cheers Elizabeth and again, thanks!

Because of the massive increases in 2 channel audio, I almost gave up myself. Almost gave up the hobby over money. The fun was waning. $20,000 turntables, $100,000 speakers, $30,000 amplifiers and these products have seemed to take over the audio mags.
But then I took a chance on 2 companies: Odyssey audio and Schiit Audio. Bought a 2 channel Odyssey Khartago power amp and the Schiit Audio Saga preamp. Cost for both combined, well under 2k. Added a used pair of B&W stand mount speakers for under $1K and a Pro-ject 6 perspex turntable and a Ortfon MC-3 turbo MC cartridge. Sounds great.

Then I attended the 2017 and 2018 Axpona shows, with my wife attending the 2018 show. 

After visiting the various rooms, I looked at my wife and told her that I never realized how good my home system was! I didn't come away from the show with a burning need to replace or upgrade anything.
I was happy, listening to music again and genuinely having fun again in this hobby.  Moral of this story: there's a ton of affordable gear that will bring back the fun, so you can let go of the feeling of needing, even wanting to buy more gear.
Now, all this said, if you want a nice little MM phono preamp, Schiit Audio has one called the Mani. It costs $129.00. I can live with this preamp if I needed to, but it's just too much fun and sounds great.
Don't give up.....companies like Schiit Audio ARE bringing back the fun!

Elizabeth,

I’m sorta new here with not even 200 posts, compared to the 1,000s by others.

That said, I think that if you’ve read enough of my meager input here, you would know that I got into high end audio at the age of 14, quickly learned what me ears preferred to hear, settled on the combination of components that pleased me by about 20 years later, and have changed almost nothing other than upgrades to the components that I already had since.

You can can drive yourself silly looking for the next greater and better thing. Much of that behavior sadly has more to do with conforming to the dictates of consumer capitalism than attention to the art of music and sound.

I hang around audiogon just out of curiosity, although Ramtubes at the moment is one of the few here who has a very informative thread going at the moment. Imho: Settle on what pleases you, then sit back relax and enjoy. It’s worked for me.

I've loved reading your stuff on AA.  Keep the faith :-)

As to burning out or whatever, as I approach 90 (next May), I keep buying stuff like there's no tomorrow.  In my case, hat's not just a turn of phrase.

Having been in Audio as a consumer as well as dealer in the past 
and having a 100k system and sold it for I found it much more challenging as well as rewarding to see how good you can find the gems out there for afaction of the price  case and point I am allways preaching  to bought. New or even more so a High quality
used product and just have it upgraded in electronics wiring top qualityresistors like Vishay naked super low .05 % distortion
top quality capacitors , even quality fuses, this too applies even more so to Loudspeakers since they by far give the highest distortions.  My uncle a 40 year master electronics technician 
showed me how to build a proper Zobel network that dramatically
lowrrs the high frequency distortions and also allows your amplifier 
to run much more efficient seeing a steady resistive load. I have been doing this mainly as a service to the Audio community when big companies buySyn Research I cut their open when one failed $30 in parts for $450  I use top quality parts . It is a shame people are so skeptical even when I give simple sound advise preople email me I have vastly more experience then over 95% ofAudiophiles .i just finished4 upgrades  1 Audiophile fuses  they work for a simple reason look up metal resistance stockfuses
steel- Zink conductor CSA SiverCopper 5x less earning removing lowlevel noise and bottleneck. 2 tweakslike Stabilant-22first clean Every contact with good alchohol including AC plugs so many people take littleto no time not even once a year. Stabilant is perfect over 22 years effectiveness look it up,  Bybee technologies make a internal purifier under $150 that absorbed magnetic energy
and RF ,just do a search ,no batteries , and cable upgrades.
icould not believe using the new Keith Eichmann Connectors
only conductor veryhigh purity copper- Silver much betterThen most gold over brass.and Neotech occ- 0 Crystal Silver Copper
interconnect Wire .mysubwoofer took on another level of articulation - Real tuneful Bass. Forlittle monies  these all made
a substantial increase in realism . I had already modified the Loudspeakers Xover ,and wiring which totally transformed  them
to speakers many times their cost. For low cost finishing touches
a Ifi Audio AC purifiers buy at least 2 at a time 3-4 highly recommended under $100 each , and have usb-3 purifier thathelpsout digital in several areas. That is my take on seeing
out cost effective but worthwild Audio product upgrades . 

Mentions of Maggi lovers , thst is a speaker that sounds good but has a bunch 
of Substantial upgrades why they build them so minimal is beyond me ljust charge a little more , for starters get rid of the junky metal jumpers a quality 
wire  jumper, Putin 2 high quality fuses. Magnestand rebuildsyour
 Maggi total overhaul transformation. The stock panels flex like a sale a solid hardwood frame locks in theimaging much better , the wiring totally replaced 
to quality wireand the Xoverisnight and day better and has to have a beautiful
hsrdwould external Xover sitting in  the back withallhigh quality voivedparts 
my friend owns them and IHave owned 3.6,and 1.7 .  If you like the Maggi sound 
you would not believe the potential of your speakers untill youhave heard these .
yesmaybe around $2k or so but  the investmentislike buying a 5 x more expensive speaker. If nearPa. Youmaybe can do hesr a pair . If PeterGunn
is still doing them.  Just a thought , ifyou are tired of allways changing gear.
just upgradeit and be done with it for years. Digital keeps getting better that 
maybethe only exception to the rule.

elizabeth,

Please don’t quit.  I very much enjoy and appreciate your knowledge and incites.

JD

pack it all away and get an Alexa and just listen to music instead of a stereo system.  Simple pleasures.

s@curiousjim
Was “incites” a Freudian slip or intentional?  One of the things that I have always enjoyed about Elizabeth’s posts is the way that some other posters seem to be incited by them and respond with spirited comebacks.

syntax2,029 posts11-25-2018 7:47pm... listening to digital is like having a shower with thousands
of tiny ice cubes, listening to vinyl is having the shower with water. ...

@syntax this is a great analogy!  

I think that what we all need every now and then is a new music-loving friend.  My GF (over 3 years now) was always into music, but didn't know what a nice stereo can sound like.  It's been really fun helping her understand the nuances that the system brings to light, and in this case, her helping me discover new music.

Together, we now discover new music all the time, and at least once per week, we sit and listen to music.  We talk about the artists, read the covers, check out the band on "the google", and learn.  It's really amazing to see how they fit together... like how often certain artists are found on other bands' albums.

It's really fun discovering the new music, and appreciating how great music can sound in the right environment, with the right equipment, with a tasty beverage... and of course the right person who can enjoy it with you!

I've also met a few audiophile friends in the area, and I'm learning to appreciate other people's systems as well.  It's an interesting way to enjoy and sample the gear without necessarily buying something.

   Elizabeth, I appreciate your posts . You are part of a group that are more knowledgeable, more experienced and very civil while posting . As a chat member that is further along than most here, this is an issue of diminishing returns for you . As far as the Winter Blues , I battle with Depression. Music lifts my spirits when down , and soothes me when itrated . You help me with my MUSIC ! So Thank you for that. Since we limit our conversations to audio , my I offer this . I try to balance my music with cycling , meditating , fishing and helping others . Cycling or skiing on a cold clear day, followed by a nice meal and some good tunes does so much to keep the Winter Blues at Bay . I personally am always appreciative when the Stronger Gender excels at Boys Club hobbies . So to ALL OF YOU TRANSISTOR/TUBE HEADS , keep it alive ! Respectfully, Mike B. 

Thats a good one but I'm pretty sure the ice shower would be quite unpleasant whereas  my digital is the exact opposite quite lovely so can't buy it.  

Elizabeth. I don't see you posting anything gibberish. Your opinions are much welcomed here. You bring a very well thought out expression that does not carry a heavy tone but adds life to these threads. You had a big influence on me getting the SA-10. When I had got my new amp and preamp then added a 2nd dedicated line all my system was messed up. Like it had a cold. You suggested it was the new wiring causing the harshness. You told me it would settle in and it finally did after a couple of weeks. So your experience is well valued here. Keep posting! Oh I just put some damping material on top of the Marantz but can't tell much difference. It is built solid with no ringing on the chassis. The phono preamp is another story. Lets see you post.

Wonderfull post but I don't have time to read all this stuff, I got shopping to do.

To stop posting here or anywhere else may be a good idea. Talking to us boys is like talking to the wall and these deceptively wonderful words of interest and support signify nothing.
You got arrangements to make to get to Milan on time. And time is running out. Give La Scala a chance to share the experience. Shopping for evening gown would be more appropriate than for this audiophile junk. Hear the real music.

Mapman,
I agree with you. Syntax’s analogy may indeed apply to his experiences. I’ve experienced wonderful music listening sessions with digital and analogue sources. I certainly don't  get the impression Elizabeth is experiencing "ice cube showers" with her Marantz DAC.
Charles

I can verify that the SA-10 that me and Elizabeth have and others is very very good. #%€$ good. With playing a great digital mastered CD it  will reveal the limitations of my TT. Sibilence, surface noise, mistracking. Its seductive and makes me lazy to get up and spin a record, I don't always run the cardas clean sweep record. (It does make a difference in that I have been doing it consistently as of late). I don't think its much of the SA-10s fault if some CDs come out as a 🦃. You can dress up a turkey but it will still be a turkey. If I'm experiencing ice showers its because the water is hard. Back to the records. Some or most have that warm analog glow kinda like how tubes introduce distortion that is ear friendly. I live happily with both. 

What an enjoyable discussion. 

The entire universe is on a sine wave. Audiophilia included. “Go with the flow”. Presumably there’s a larger intelligence in the background holding the baton. They say it’s trying to help. 

And one great but seldom mentioned benefit of these forums:  funny posts. To all the witty audiophiles:  keep working!  
Jim Heckman

Elizabeth, you are one of the few people whose posts I always read.

To provide my humble input to your post, I have the same system I assembled in 1991 starting with Cary Audio’s Tubed Class A Preamp and Monoblocks with Maggies 3.7s. Tubes and Ribbons were what I wanted. For Redbook CD, I bought a Rega Planet when they came out in mid 1990 as I liked the top-loading feature. It is used as a transport which is connected to a Genesis Digital Time Lens and on to a Theta DS Pro Basic II DAC. There is magical synergy with these components. They were leading edge components of their day and still hard to beat for pure musicality. I can transport Sarah Vaughn or Anna Netrebko right into the room. My interconnects are all Mogami studio. My reasoning was if music was recorded in the studio with Mogami, it stood to reason it would work in my system for playback. Reasoanbly priced to boot. The only addition was incorporating my Mac into the system to take advantage of online libraries to supplement my CD-based listening. It is connected via USB to a s/pdif converter and into the time lens.

Aside from that, I have only ever purchased music. I have incorporated a few select tweaks in the intervening years but the system has been ‘locked’ since mid 1990. It sounded great then and sounds great now. I should also add that I ‘graduated’ to this configuration after years of swapping components in a never-ending chase of ‘better’ sound. I made the decision to return to tubes and after hearing ribbons, I never looked back.

Hope that lends some credibility to the notion of getting off the buying bandwagon. Are there better components? Yes, but I have chosen to save that money for music. My Redbook CD playback is nothing short of sublime to me and all who listen.

Please consider staying. I enjoy your input.

elizabeth

I will second, the Ani DiFranco debut disc.  Feel free to talk about possible gear additions from your list. I cannot imagine that you do not have your room, system, dialed-in after all of these years. Hope you are well and enjoying this Holiday season. Keep posting here and other Audio forums. I enjoy your musings and writings.

Happy Listening!

MY latest fiddling was to add some PS Audio Noise Harvesters. Two was good, so I ordered five more. NOT good. Went back to zero to get a baseline. Then added just three. Pretty good. One tweak I added was one I have used on some looser fitting AC plugs. I added a string of Blu Tack around the perimeter of the base.. (Rolled out softened up BluTack to a 1/4" roll about six inches long, to perimeter of base, so it squishes under and around as the Noise Harvester is places on duplex. Then press down the sides of the BluTack to tighten the bond between N H and duplex.so the device is stuck to the duplex.If yo have not used BluTack, it stays easy to remove for many years, I have done so with countless AC plugs and IEC)
Amazingly, the sound is better WITH the BluTack on the Noise Harvesters. I would say mainly the midrange has a slight improvement in clarity and smoothness. Where without the BluTack the treble was a little emphasized.
I wish someone could try this tweak so I stop feeling like it may be hallucinations... LOL

I've never tried that with BluTack but it doesn't surprise me that it would improve your sound. BluTack is an amazing product. I first used it 30 years ago as an interface between my speakers (at the time) & their stands. Been using it ever since in various places when I need to stick something together & dampen it at the same time. 

You can quit buying stuff but I like reading your gibberish so don't quit posting!

elizabethThank You for the update. A little tweak here, a little tweak there can really help any system. On the cheap as well. Win, win.   Happy Listening!

keesue
Thank You for sharing your Audio journey. Much of that older gear was really built and made to last for decades. Are you still using a Rega Planet?
I am looking forward in reading more about your musical tastes. Welcome!

Happy Listening!