I heard this live; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9SVGZGaGdAAlthough there is all kind of distortion, can you hear beyond the distortion; this is jazz musicians just jammin, all improvisation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8z0u9oS9ZcThese are St. Louis musicians playing for the joy of making music in 1960. I hate these cuts are so short. Late night when they were live, they went from one idea into another, the way improvising musicians play, and 15 minutes was typical. Compare what you have on record, to Horace Silver live, and note the time difference. The organ or the guitar took the music in a different direction, and it was like follow the leader; this is what improvising is all about, no written music. No amount of practice will enable you to improvise like the top jazz musicians we've discussed, and Frogman knows it; either you got it or you don't. They used the word "practice" as if I'm saying these musicians never practiced; evidently they think I'm a "MOW-RON". How many times have Learsfool and Frogman inferred that? Grant Green would come into his favorite lounge, lean up against the jukebox, and just start playing, of course no body said anything or minded. After he finished, he would have a drink and leave. He was lean with a thick head of hair, and a build like a cowboy. When this baldheaded dude who was slightly overweight came up to me, I didn't know who he was. Time brings about a change. While there was a change in his looks, his playing just got better and better; he never evolved to some unrecognizable music that he called jazz. To me, this music is living and breathing, it's a part of me. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, precisely what is being discussed? The conversation I see is bouncing around like a pin ball in a pin ball machine. Why don't you specify a conversation with defined parameters and we'll discuss that.
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Frogman, would you care to explain why and how, Mingus's "Epitaph" owes so much to Charles Ives?
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I get it, if there had not been any classical music, there would be no jazz. Jazz musicians who did not study classical music should be discounted. All jazz musicians studied classical music before they become jazz musicians. That's why Miles left Juilliard. Are all or any of the above correct?
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Learsfool, you are cleverly evading my statement, consequently I have to repeat it; "You will never be able to improvise like the jazz musicians we have discussed, no matter how much you practice, or how many schools you go to". Your statement was that you have to practice in order to improvise. You have to practice in order to play "Jingle Bells" properly.
Have we concluded the practicing and improvising?
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Frogman, I never heard of Charles Ives before you mentioned him. Did he jam at Mintons? |
Rok, those two Sam Lazar links are very important; using your Harvey, Sam Stewart analogy, that was as close to any music I could find that Harvey was playing that Summer. Listen as well as you can through the distortion.
Sam Lazar was like a shooting star; he burned brighter than any of the other stars for a minute or two, and then went out. Fortunately, he played many local clubs, and I caught him as much as I could.
Sam Lazar was an American pianist and Hammond organist originally from St. Louis, Missouri. A mysterious figure who disappeared from the music scene in the early 1960s He is best known for fronting a group that included early work from guitarist Grant Green. His first LP on Argo Records approximates his birth year as 1933. Initially a pianist, Lazar played in Ernie Wilkins group before Wilkins left St. Louis to join Count Basie. This was followed by a stint in George Hudson's big band which also included Clark Terry and Jimmy Forrest at various times. After a tour with alto saxophonist Tab Smith.
In 1958, Lazar saw the Jimmy Smith trio at the Peacock Alley club in St. Louis and was inspired to play the Hammond organ. His St. Louis-based organ combo later included guitarists Grant Green, Joe Diorio, George Eskridge, drummer Chauncey Williams and saxophonist Miller Brisker among others. Not only did the group play a variety of gigs from strip clubs to jazz clubs, but they were reportedly one of the first interracial combos in the area.
Lazar recorded a single on Cawthron Records, and then went on to make several albums in the 1960s for the Chicago-based Argo Records. His first, Space Flight, was recorded in 1960 and added bassist Willie Dixon to his regular working combo featuring Williams and fellow St. Louis musician Grant Green.
He disappeared from the music scene in the early 60's, and nobody seems to know what happened to him. Musicians like him are definitely worth a listen, especially if you can find a CD without so much distortion.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, that is the most expensive CD I've ever seen, and he was one hell of player. In order to know just how good he was, you would have to have seen him live. Sam was a wild man on a organ; he could make it howl and growl, sounds you never heard coming from an organ. If money was no object, I would buy the CD, but since money is very much an object, I wont; however, I can go to "you tube" and reminisce.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, after checking on "Willie Dixon", I'm still not sure. From what I can see, there seems to be more than 1 Willie Dixon.
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Alex, I listened to "Bud Shank's Quartet", and it was just the kind of West Coast jazz I've been looking for. It's going to take time to down load more, I'll keep you posted.
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Alex, I've been listening to "Bud" since the last time I posted; it's cloudy and warm here in St. Louis, a perfect day for just "chilling" and listening to some good "West Coast" jazz, and that's exactly what I've been doing, thanks.
Enjoy the music.
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That's good news Rok, now all I have to do is get my darling wife to give me $296.90 to buy that CD.
Enjoy the music.
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Oregonpapa's thread, "Does West Coast jazz get any better than this?" has some of the best jazz musicians of that genre, on one disc. I'll be covering them individually a little later on.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, while I agree with your comments until you get to "Haden"; everything must change, or evolve, and jazz is no different, but when it changed, you remained the same. I changed, but in a different way, I liked Scotch then, and now I like orange jello.
The problem we have, is one word, and that word is "jazz"; what if we agreed to call your music "Jazz", and Haden's music "Music Music" would that satisfy this debate.
I like a lot of Charlie Hadens music, and when I listen, I do not have this raging debate as to whether or not it's jazz. While you like "jazz jazz", you also like a lot of music that's clearly "not jazz", so as we can see you like more than just "jazz", but you feel someone else has laid claim to the name of your favorite music, when in reality it's simply that music during one period of time in it's evolution. But you must realize that nobody wanted to changed your name as you went through an aging evolution; nobody wanted to change your name from "young Rok" to old Rok, or "Dwain" (God I hate that name). Imagine having to go through the rest of your life with that name because as you evolved, you couldn't keep your old name, and you had to be called "Dwain".
Is a rose by any other name still a rose? I don't think I can get any "stupider" with this point, that doesn't have a point, but maybe everyone can get my drift; call it jazz or not jazz after the change, I still like some of Charlie Hadens music.
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Rok, I'm over that "culture thing" I had with the Delta Blues, and I can appreciate the Blues for what they are; just don't tell me Howlin Wolf was influenced by Tchaikovsky, and everything is OK.
Enjoy the music.
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Chuck Berry is another "home boy", he had the "Juke Joints" overflowing. If a guy wanted to see any girls, he had to follow the Blues, because there were very few ladies where you heard Miles and Trane. The best way to find the ladies was to follow Chuck Berry; where ever he was, the joint was over flowing with females.
There was so much live entertainment in St. Louis at that time, that it was hard to decide where to go. I'm going to find more local jazz from that era, and you come back with "The Delta Blues".
Enjoy the music.
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Learsfool, who am I to believe, you or my lying eyes? How many times do I have to tell you that the man was living with me? How many jazz groups have you played with? Is it ever possible for you to say, "I don't know"? Just because you and the Frogman say a thing is so, does not mean that it is, "It ain't necessarily so".
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learsfool, "There are many things one can and does practice without the instrument, especially when they involve thinking about musical ideas - you often do not need to physically play to be able to work them out in your head."
When you word something like that, "How can you be wrong"? When he was having a bowl of chili across the table from me, I could have looked at him and said "Uh huh, I caught you practicing, I know that practicing look when I see it"
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Frogman and Learsfool, an even better practice time was when he was sleeping; he could dream practice the whole performance. Why didn't I think of that. As usual, the Frogman and Learsfool are right.
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Rock, when I was digging "Peanuts" I had to darken that peach fuzz over my top lip, and wear a hat to look older, and hope no one ever asked for ID at the clubs he played.
Me and "Peanuts" were a lot younger then, and of course him and his band were a lot better than on that clip. There was so much live music at that time, that I rarely stayed home and listened to records.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, if you want to pursue this conversation according to the book, we could begin with "Ragtime" and Scott Joplin, followed by New Orleans jazz styles; which migrated to Chicago, and became "Chicago Jazz Styles", that was followed by "Swing", that evolved into "Bebop", that merged into "Hardbop", which cooled down to "Cool jazz", after which came a wide divergence and jazz split into "Free Jazz", "Soul Jazz", "Fusion and Rock Jazz" plus "Acid Jazz", and we can not leave out "Smooth Jazz" plus "Latin Jazz" which does not include "Brazilian Jazz".
As our lead jazz musician, where would you like to begin?
Enjoy the music.
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I hear you Rok; no body seems to be happy after we diverge; but we'll get Alex's input on this, we might even get some "wire worshipers" input, they always show up when there's a disagreement; do you think they'll show up now?
Maybe we should run this thread on two different tracks simultaneously; trains do it; but somebody always seems to jump their tracks and we have a head on collision.
Getting back to local musicians; a pianist I talked to a lot, could play Horace Silver's tunes as good as the man himself, and I was always asking him why didn't he go to New York, and become rich and famous. He kind of "sluffed" off the question, and never answered. After reading about Grant Green, I believe he knew something I didn't; these local musicians ain't doing too bad; nice homes, car, and I heard he had a beautiful wife to come home to. Why go on the road and get mis-used and abused.
Jazz musicians might get famous after going to New York, but how many get rich?
Enjoy the music.
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That was a fun clip, was it from a movie? I enjoyed it; in these time we certainly need a lot more uplifting fun type of music, and there was nothing more fun than the "Boogie Woogie".
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, have you ever noticed that the people who complain about what I talk about, never have anything to talk about themselves. Right now I'm listening to "Moanin". The same one that's on the album, the album that's better than KOB. Every time Bobby Timmons strikes a piano key, I hear something that I've never heard before, although I've heard this tune a million times. I can stand to listen to Benny Golson's solo on "Along Came Betty" forever; if they (KOB people) feel half of what I feel when I hear Blakey's album "Moanin", I can understand why they buy so many copies. Here's the link just in case you haven't heard it for awhile. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv9NSR-2DwMThis is "Along Came Betty" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTzRHq_cH5E Benny Golson's sax is as smooth as silk; where can you find something like this on KOB? Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I have seen more complaints about me than you can shake a stick at. Is this thread titled "What's wrong with Orpheus" or "Jazz For Aficionados"? If it's the first, a lot of people are batting 100, but if it's the latter, they have failed to contribute anything.
Who ever has a complaint about this thread can change it any way they want to; do you want the latest in jazz? Fine, link it up and let us hear it. Do you want Classical? That's good to, I have no objection? If you want Hill Billy ( post it on another thread) OK, but I can't promise I'll listen.
See how easy it is to have it any way you want it.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, I had to check the calendar to make sure it wasn't "April fool day". Since that's not it.... I'm going to pass on this one, and let Frogman make the judgement.
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Rok, I was comparing Nica's book to the 100 best jazz tunes of the 50's, and noticed there is an incredible, almost 1 on 1 correspondence to the two; practically all of the people in her book, are represented in best jazz tunes of the 50's. I didn't know it, but both of yesterdays tunes, "Moanin" and "Along Came Betty" appear in the 100 best jazz tunes. That's unusual for 1 album to have 2 tunes in a best of compilation like this. KOB does not have even 1 cut in this book; whatever that means, I'll let others decide. While yesterdays selections were coincidental, today I'm intentionally choosing two selections from that compilation. Miles 'Round Midnight' and Dave Brubeck, 'Take Five'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIgLt7LAZF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHdU5sHigYQEnjoy the music. |
Rok, you're right on time, I wandered the exact same thing.
I'm going to find another one, back in a minute
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That first one we saw was probably due to some "Hissy fit" Paul Desmond was having about Joe Morello. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpZHUVjQydITrane at his best. When you hear any of the top 100, you don't have to ask "WHY"? Enjoy the music. |
Oliver Sain was another local musician who was in popular demand around town, and one I had the good fortune to have a long chat with. He was sitting in the hot tub at the spa, and I recognized him. Since I had gone to the clubs that he played down through the years, we had a lot to chat about; before and after he hit the big time with Fontella Bass. He told me how nice it was living large in the house on the hill, but he knew when it was time to sell, and come back down. We talked about wild times at some of the clubs he played before hitting the big time; he even invited me to come see him where he was performing at that time, but I didn't make it. Oliver Sain (born March 1, 1932, Dundee, Mississippi – died October 28, 2003, St. Louis, Missouri) was an American saxophonist, songwriter, bandleader, drummer and record producer. As a performer and as a producer, Oliver Sain exerted an influence on the evolution of St. Louis and R&B that is rivaled only by that of his close friend and infrequent collaborator Ike Turner. Sain was the grandson of Dan Sain, the guitarist in Frank Stokes’ legendary Memphis blues act the Beale Street Sheiks. In 1949, Sain moved to Greenville, Mississippi to join his stepfather, pianist Willie Love, as a drummer in a band fronted by Sonny Boy Williamson, soon leaving to join Howlin’ Wolf where he acted as a drummer on and off for the following decade. After returning from the United States Army draft he took up the saxophone. Sain is credited with launching the career of Little Milton, who became a vocalist in Sain’s band, and discovering Bobby McClure and Fontella Bass, whom he originally hired as pianist for Little Milton. He is also associated with the discovery of Kim Massie, who was largely unknown until she was heard sitting in with his band. Sain wrote "Don't Mess up a Good Thing" which was a number one hit in the US for Bobby McClure in 1965. The song was later covered by Greg Allman of the Allman Brothers Band, on his solo album Laid Back. In the mid-1970s, he recorded his own disco records such as "Bus Stop", "Booty Bumpin' (The Double Bump)" (1975), "Party Hearty" (1976) and "Feel Like Dancing" (1977). Sain died on October 28, 2003 from bone cancer, which followed on from previous bladder cancer. He was well known and liked by everybody in St. Louis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt1VjRpBMjsEnjoy the music. |
Rok, thanks a lot for that supporting link on Oliver Sain. He looked the same as he looked on that interview the last time I saw him; he was in the hot tub looking fit as a fiddle (however fit that is) and we talked for a long time about when he was on the bandstand, and I was in the club where he was playing, having a ball. Although we didn't know one another during those times, we were in the same space at the same time, that made us feel like long lost friends; especially considering those times spanned so many years.
(pardon me if I pass on that absurd question) Half of the south is named 'Sonny Boy'
He was so easy to talk to that he felt like a long lost friend. Late 90's is as close as I can get to the last time I saw him. Thanks again for that link.
Enjoy the music.
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Pirius, I have a number of those same albums you have by Dexter Gordon and Herbie Hancock. I noticed you didn't mention Herbie's fusion albums, and I'm curious about them; albums like "Head Hunter" for example?
Enjoy the music
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Rok, here's another local jazz vocalist I saw a lot. The reason I'm looking up all these St. Louis musicians, is because I can't remember the name of the pianist I've mentioned so many times, who could play Silver's tunes as good as the man himself. The last time I saw him, he was at a lounge where all the "Peacocks" went; the men were as vain as the women, and were always meticulously dressed in the most expensive attire. Everyone came to see, and be seen, almost no one was listening to the music. When I came in, I was alone and I came to hear him play. He knew I liked Horace Silver, and that's when he would jam "Nica's Dream", or "Senor Blues". Most of the time I came in before he started playing so we could rap. I've already mentioned his photographic portfolio that had him playing with the musicians we have discussed so much when they came to St. Louis and needed keyboards. (watch Frogman chime in and say "You told us that before") When everybody you knew is dead, that's a scary feeling, but that's the price one pays for getting old. I'm glad Jeanne Trevor is still around. Here's the link for Mae Wheeler, I really had some good times at the places she entertained. http://www.riverfronttimes.com/musicblog/2011/06/19/jazz-singer-mae-wheeler-passes-away-updated-with...Enjoy the music. |
Rok, it's getting so bad that I have to look in the mirror, and pinch myself to make sure I'm still here. While looking for that pianist friend of mine, I just discovered the nightclub owner of the place I described as where the "Peacocks" hang, has gone on to that big club in the sky. http://stljazznotes.blogspot.com/2015/03/rip-gene-lynn-singer-and-nightclub-owner.htmlIt's so bad I'm expecting to see my obituary next. Enjoy the music. |
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Like wine, jazz has it's better years, and 62 was most certainly one of them, and by one of the masters of that form of musical communication. "Jazz Jazz" was still in vogue in 62, consequently, that master's musical language reaches me on a deep internal level. Someone else with that same ability to communicate with me was "Ike Quebec" with his album "Heavy Soul", that was also released about the same time as Dexter's "Go!". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3zQXxTwugA&list=PLjSczc1oDTLB9mk9FD6ucHOQurfqRYePpHere we have the entire album; although not one weak cut, "Heavy Soul" is my favorite. Ike died in 63, which was at the same time "Heavy Soul" had become my favorite LP. I was told that the band members knew that Ike was terminal when they cut that album; you can hear it in the music, especially on Freddy Roach's organ, listen. To the club members: (Dave, you can become one if you like; it's because we have been communicating so long, that I refer to them as members) I've returned to focusing on this period in jazz because it gives me more enjoyment than any other period. Frogman, both Dexter and Stanley were boss. Enjoy the music. |
Some periods of time in jazz are the more fertile than others, and there will always be debate in which times they were. I recall times that stand out for me in different musicians lives; for example let's take Wes Montgomery; I liked him better before he became famous. When he had his trio in "Naptown", they played for themselves, and the fan club in his "hometown". One of the tunes is "Around Midnight"; Wes Montgomery Trio. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Xozvcf0FAEnjoy this music. |
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Mel Rhyne's music has a similar feel as Wes Montgomery's at that time; it hit's the sweet spot for me. Alex, do you know whether or not that CD or record is available? I could listen to music like that all day long.
I'm enjoying your music.
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Did I ever tell yall about the time I was a "sideman"; I was a "sideman" at a musician's brother's party.
We were at a small party, having a good time drinking fine liquor and enjoying good music, when the host suggested that we all had some kind of musical talent. (I know this story would sound better, if I said I was at a musicians party, but that ain't the way it happened)
I can drink fine (free) liquor and enjoy good music all night long (at least I could at that time, which was a long time ago) but I can still enjoy good music, as long as it's not all night.
Our host had a variety of very basic musical instruments hanging on the wall and laying around: a tambourine, bongos, harmonica, whistle, flute, plus others I don't remember. He gave me the whistle, my lady friend the tambourine, and passed around what was left to guests who wanted to participate, then he put a record with background music on the turntable, and gave us direction on what to play, and when.
The music was a little rough in the beginning, but I got the feel of the rhythm from the drums and tambourine, and tooted my whistle like I imagined "Bird" or "Trane" would toot their horns. Once we got the feel from his direction, and the background music, we continued on after the record quit playing, and it began to sound like music.
I simply felt the music others were playing, and made sounds that corresponded to what I felt, from the music they made; believe it or not, we made credible music.
We had a lot of fun, and he proved his point that everybody has "some" musical talent.
That made me think about "Sidemen"; they can sound ever so good, until they decide to make a record as leader. I had been listening to one of my favorite sidemen for years, and wondered when he was going to make a record as "Leader". Finally he made a record; I couldn't wait to get to the record store, it seemed like the car was going too slow, I wanted to fly. After I got the record back home, there was the anticipation of finally hearing a record where he was the leader.
I hate to use the word "disappointed", but that's the only one I can find at the moment. My expectations were not quite met would be a better way to put it. This has been repeated many times down through the years; so much so, that I've come to the conclusion that there are sidemen, and there are leaders; if I had been a musician, I believe I would have been a sideman, not everybody is cut out to be "leader man".
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, that guy Frogman submitted could win the "Downbeat Poll" for best "jazz whistler" of the year anytime; and I only had four Courvoisiers.
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Alex, I saw 3 CD's on Amazon, but not the one you presented; do you recommend all of those they presented?
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I saw it Alex, and it will be on order.
Thanks
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I was just reading about "Live Trane: The European Tours" ; Trane, tenor and soprano sax; Erik Dolphy alto sax, bass clarinet, flute; McCoy Tyner piano; Reggie Workman bass, Jimmy Garrison, bass; Elvin jones drums. This set contains music from nine concerts that took place between November 61, and November 63 ( I saw Trane, McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones, and Jimmy Garrison, in the dead of Winter 63, must have been in January)
The sonic quality of this set is 2 1/2, while the performance is rated 5 out of 5 stars. There are five versions of Mr. PC, four of "Naima" and six of "My Favorite Things", ranging from 14 to 25 minutes. I saw the 25 minute version; fortunately there was a musician seated at our table who thoroughly enjoyed the extra time on my favorite things, while the rest of us were somewhat bewildered. I'm sure that Frogman, and Learsfool would have appreciated that extra time, because they're musicians.
A case can be made that "Live Trane" documents the crucial transition in Coltrane's artistic development, when he moved from chord-based "vertical" improvisation to open ended "horizontal" melodic invention based on scales and modes.
Carlos Santana states, "John Coltrane broke through to the other side. He found "The Light", and for a time, he became "The Light". This concert contains eight hours of music, you glimpse what it was like to be in the presence of Coltrane when he lived.
I think that last paragraph sum it all up.
Enjoy the music.
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When People think of John Coltrane, they seldom think of his sentimental side; "Coltrane for Lovers" exposes a side of "Trane" that's rarely explored. All tracks have John Coltrane playing tenor saxophone. 1. "My One and Only Love" 2. "Too Young to Go Steady" 3. "In a Sentimental Mood" 4. "It's Easy to Remember" 5. "Dedicated to You" 6. "You Don't Know What Love Is" 7. "After the Rain" 8. "My Little Brown Book" 9. "Soul Eyes" Mal Waldron 10. "They Say It's Wonderful" 11. "Nancy (With the Laughing Face) The recordings compiled for Coltrane for Lovers initially received criticism for Coltrane's stylistic move from complex jazz compositions of the free jazz form to a simplistic formula of ballads and blues. Following the initial controversy, the album's recordings gained a legacy as one of Coltrane's most popular recordings and significant in the genre of romantic jazz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r594pxUjcz4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrwSuy6ZBjI Here we have "In a Sentimental Mood" and "You Don't Know What Love Is" Enjoy the music. |
"Outstanding late night romantic jazz", that's a perfect description; right now the sun is shining very bright, and it's a long time since I've been in a romantic mood. After it gets dark, if I can find anyone to get in a romantic mood with, that just might work; but seriously, I checked a few cuts, and I think it's a nice album.
Enjoy the music.
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I was perusing through an old "Stereophile" for music reviews when I ran across this:
"Moanin" was a swinging 1958 session featuring Lee Morgan and Benny Golson who put his mark on the band by composing three long time standards for it's book- the title track "Along Came Betty" and "Blues March". They go on to speak of how good the rest of the musicians are, except "Bobby Timmons" , quote: "It sounds as if Timmons is playing a less than stellar piano" then they go on to gush over everybody else on that album.
There ought to be a law against "Stereophile" ever writing a review on another jazz record.
First, they give "Bobby Timmons" tune "Moanin" to Benny Golson, and next they say he's playing less than stellar piano, when every time he strikes a piano key on this album, perfect jazz come out. It's for sure there are no "jazz aficionado's" at "Stereophile"
Enjoy the music.
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