Legacy 20/20 and Tubes

To each his own, I happen to like them but ofcourse there wouldnt be 1000 speaker makers if one fit all

Dbld: My Father was not only a "happy owner" of Legacies, he had been led to believe that what he was listening to was also very accurate and well designed. It wasn't until he was shown otherwise, both in terms of visible design flaws and the sonic byproducts that resulted, that he was forced to change his opinion. Prior to that, he had been living in "ignorant bliss", simply because he didn't know any better or been exposed to better designs. Did this make him dumb? No. It only made him misled and gullible. Now that he knows the difference, he's not only happier with his system, but also less likely to be taken advantage of again anytime in the near future.

I think that most of this was due to being lulled into a state of self-confidence due to all of the poorly conducted "professional" reviews. The same goes for several other Legacy owners that i've modified speakers for that shared similar results. They could not believe how much better their speakers could sound using the same basic components even though "Legacies are some of the very best" prior to these modifications. As such, i had to ask them "if these were some of the best, how come there was SOOO much room for improvement in SOOO many different areas?". The only logical conclusion is that the original product wasn't nearly as good as they had been led to believe.

As such, i'm simply trying to help educate people BEFORE they make such a costly mistake and / or help them to understand why they are experiencing certain situations with said product if they've already bought it. If someone is happy with what they have and aren't interested in improving both the accuracy and the enjoyment of their system, so be it. They know what they have, they know what they like and my comments won't alter their opinion one iota. Then again, i would have to assume that MOST people that are reading this and other audio forums on a regular basis ARE interested in both learning and bettering their systems, otherwise they wouldn't be here.

As far as Legacy products go, consider me "done" on the subject. As you've pointed out, there's a multitude of reference material in the archives both here and at AA for those interested in finding out such info. The only reason that i responded to this thread again was that i had saw that Chad had responded and was making an apples to oranges comparison of two very different, yet somewhat similar products. As such, i wanted to point out that comparisons of products is only fair when the comparisons are conducted in a fair manner.

What he was doing would be equivalent to putting a 50 year old Cassius Clay in the ring with Mike Tyson in his prime. Obviously, the results are somewhat predictable even though one was a FAR more skilled and well-rounded performer than the other, but you would never know it because that performer was also well past the point of prime operation. This is why Component A beats Component B hands down, why Component B beats Component C hands down, yet Component C beats Component A. The bottom line is unequal comparisons with less than accurate judging or criteria. Sean
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I have tried several very well regarded speakers, and listened to tons in different stores. I even listened to some amazing speakers that had something like 60 tweeters and 30 mids or something crazy like that. I cannot remember who made them but they were incredibly natural sounding in spite of having so many drivers.

I have a pair of 20/20s and find them very natural, not at all harsh or edgy. I have had some electronics that were harsher than others, but then again my 20/20s seems to reveal any change in my system, even powercords [which I still can't come to grips with]. For me they sound very realistic and I enjoy them as often as possible.

Unfortunately Perfectionist's last comment might as well be cut and pasted from his first one, completely missing what Chadnliz had to say. And for Sean's post, well...I know what he thinks, and that is fine. I don't want to provoke any more negative posting. I just don't agree, and he won't change my mind because I have done my own due-diligence and bought the Focus. If I can, I'll get the Whispers.

Can we please move on now?

Regarding the original post, I have only heard of folks using tubes on the satellite portion of the Focus, not really the whole speaker. Having said that, I do know of one guy running a David Berning ZH-270 Tube Amplifier and loves it. It seems this speaker hungers for current which tube amps often struggle with. I did try an Art Audio Concerto II and it didn’t work well for me.

Tubes are tough on the better Legacy speakers due to the lower impedence. If you put enought of the right kind of power to them, they sing. The Focus and Whisper speakers do need good sized rooms to be best appreciated - in a smaller room, or with lower current power, results may be mixed.

I currently have newer Whispers being driven by a McCormack DNA-500 through a VAC Phi 2.0 preamp and the sound is magical. APL modded Denon 3910 and Sunfire Cinema Grand (tuner - direct)as sources, both with Epiphany PC's. Elrod Statements to DNA-500 and BPT 3.5+ conditioner, SIg 2 to VAC, etc., etc.

My experience has been the best way to use tubes with my Legacies is thru the preamp. I also have Focus 20/20's as rears, powered by Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature(for movies).

I too have heard lots of speakers in lots of rooms, and it boils down to what works in your room, with your gear, to your ears. I have nothing to prove to anyone, nor do I care to. To argue about numbers or others' opinions pretty much misses the point. I have heard great numbers that sounded like crap, and vice versa. It VERY subjective. At best, I've used these threads as indicators to point me in different directions. There are no shortcuts to actually listening for yourself.

Sometimes the pontifications (no names - you know who you are, you pontificators) get so seriously wrapped up they lose track of why we do this silly "hobby" - "TO ENJOY THE MUSIC"!!! Relax people....... life is too short.

NO SMALL ROOMS! MATCH THE SPEAKERS TO THE OTHER EQUIPMENT.
Sean has never heard probably set up Focuses. Robert Pincus of Cisco Music, Tom Port of Better Records and Steve Hoffman (you should know who he is) love the Focusus. Steve Hoffman mastered a very high percentage of his LPs on them, in a small room yet, with heavy e.q. In a large room, he wouldn't have needed to do that.

My original Focuses are fabulous in the mids, slightly attenuated in the highs and a little bass heavy. I run all EAR gear using Grover ICs/speaker wire (latest 11/07 wire). VPI TNT VI/Benz/SME IV mod./Superplatter/SDS, etc. EAR ACUTE, other quality analog front end, all types of vibration control and a pair of Holographs. I've had all types of electrostats (Acoustat Xs, 2&2, ML Monolith IIIs, tried Tannoy 15" reds, etc). My wife had me get rid of the Monolith IIIs because they had no ability to play rock and metal (we're 50). When I first purchased the Focuses, I also thought they sounded like crap but my gear was AR SP14 and Classic 30s with Cardas IC and OCOS speaker wire. Changing the rest of the system became a believer experience. The Focuses kept improving until they are of high fidelity quality without the problematic frequency response or beaming problems. Without getting some semblance of good ancillary eqiupment, they don't sound good.

Another friend uses a Yamaha CR 620 to drive them and they sound fabulous. He makes a living by grading records using the EAR 324 phono stage and the CR 620 into them. They rock, they play metal. For me, voices sing sweetly in opera, pop or chamber. So, every type of music is easily accomodated. I also perform with a professional orch and know what live and recorded sound is like (different in most cases). I'm the archival transfer engineer for the orch and various choral groups, universities, etc. I don't have a golden ear. Three of my friends claim they do and all prefer the Legacy Focuses (one liked the Whispers which he previously owned as well).

Sorry this is so long, but I hate it when these really inexpensive speakers (used $2200 to $2500) are trashed in posts. I would like to hear the HDs though. The originals can sound fantastic in large rooms with higher current tube amps (I have Grover 125w. push-pull amps and EAR 790 70w. amps).

Vandersteens 5s-not my cup of tea.