Jaybo ,
High end audio would be non existed without masterful recordings.
Owning and listening to superbly well recorded copies of my favourite singers and musicians is one of the greatest pleasures one can have in this hobby, for me anyway.
Each to his own. |
Stiltskin,
Don't misunderstand. We are not downplaying the value and enjoyability of wonderful sounding recordings. They are one of my favorite things as well. What I (and I think Jaybo) are saying is that we can't expect all recordings to be stellar. I enjoy each one for what it is. If you limit yourself to your handful of "hot stampers" you miss out on much of the music you love. I still believe that over 80% of my classic rock records are extremely fun to listen to and beat the pants off any digital version even though they may not be on anyones demo list. Sometimes it's fun just to turn it up and stop being quite so analytical. |
Sonofjim,
Fair enough.
Yes the music is first in my books.
These prices for Hot Stamper Lps can be scary at first glance.
However, I know first hand the time involved and expense at times hunting down that one special recording of your favorite music, [if it exist]
For the most part the fun in it is that you get to meet some interesting people along the way and some become friends.
On the other side of the audio coin, there are hobbyist that are in love with the equipment more so then collecting and enjoying music it self.
I personally know one person with very deep pockets like this.
Regarding Better Records .com
The more I read through it, I believe the man has a viable on line business.
Who here are customers? What did you buy and how does it stack up?
Good thread Sns.
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I have bought a few records from Tom and they all have sounded good just as he said they would. I can't justify spending that much very often though. I mostly use that site as a source of valuable information that helps me find my own good sounding copies. He is very against "audiophile" labels in general and I've found a grain of truth in almost everything he says. Most audiophile recordings don't hold up against a good original.
I used to only play audiophile material because I wanted top sound quality(or what I thought was). If I still thought that way I would never play Fair Warning, Aqualung or the White Album and that would truly be a shame.
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'..but it's like tryin' to tell a stranger 'bout rock'n'roll..'-John B' Sebastian... enjoy. |
Stiltskin, As I said earlier in the thread, I have bought hundreds of hot stampers over the years from Tom. Many Beatles records, my fave, St Peppers is scary good. You are in the studio with the boys, you sense their youthful presence and energy, and almost breathe the air. I have the complete Steely Dan catalog from Tom, it has taken years to acquire, and every one is magical . Several Simon and Garfunkel, James Taylor, Cat Stevens, Neil Young, BS&T, Yes, King Crimson, The Eagles, Grateful Dead, Chicago, an honestly great Who's Next, and so many more. I have put colored labels on the sleeves, so I can find them easily out of the thousands of lpÂ’s. While I certainly listen to many non hot stampers, I have to admit that they get heavy rotation. I read here that people cannot handle the poor sounding classic rock lpÂ’s and I understand. I have been fortunate to find great pressings of my favorite music and I have Tom Port to thank. He is getting more expensive every day and that hurts, but to be frank, the great copies are getting harder to find every day and I am happy that I have invested in TomÂ’s stuff over the years and I consider his hot stampers to most valuable of anything I own in my audio hobby. Replacing Equipment is always possible, but replacing great records is most certainly not. Having said all of this, I know that I could be happy with many of the newer pressings, they are fine, and the music and notes are all there. The difference is that with a great pressing, you are there. |
I have been in the concert biz for 30 years and I see people pay scalper prices ALL DAY LONG. Most concerts sound terrible from a sonic perspective in the first rows. I think a better investment is getting the best sounding album. You will get a good 100 to 200 hours of listening enjoyment and it computes to dollars or pennies a listening session. The best sounding ones make you feel you are in the studio. Most fans would pay their left nut to spend just an hour in the studio with their favorite band. |
I discovered Tom Port due to my dissatisfaction with the Cisco Aja and Classics Aqualung. I've been trying to figure him out ever since. Through my correspondece, I genuinely like the guy. His judgement of sound quality is good. When he reccomends a recording, I always agree with him. I don't always agree with the ones he pans though.(For example, he hates Allison Krauss So Long So Wrong which I've always enjoyed on my system) I agree that finding "hot stampers" is a laborious precess but even so I think his prices get very steep. His customers seem very satisfied(as I have been) and his service is excellent. I guess you can't blame a guy for charging what he can. I will probably continue to buy from him occasionally. What he does tend to do, in my opinion, is exagerate how horrible the "average" copy sounds and the scarcity of the descent ones. All part of the business I guess. |
Sonofjim, you are correct with your assesment of Tom. He is stubborn and opinionated, and very passionate about his stuff. He is also pretty honest about his own shortcommings. His offerings are albums he knows and loves. He rarely ventures into that he does not know well. If you like his taste in music and can afford him, he is a great find. Certainly not for everybody. |
Hi All,
This is Tom Port. I haven't posted on a thread in years, but I would just like to say that I agree with the original poster that the average rock record does sound pretty bad. We turned the consequences of that fact into our main business, which as you probably know is selling Hot Stampers. But you don't need to pay our prices, and there's a lot you can do to get much better sound from your rock vinyl. There are many tips on the site, but here are a few to get you started.
1. Cleaning fluids make all the difference in the world. It's just amazing what modern fluids can do. We sell some, but feel free to buy them from anyone. I'm not trying to hustle your business here.
2. High quality front end. The Scoutmaster is a nice table but that acylic platter is bad news, replacing it with the super platter would help a lot. A top quality phono stage is huge too.
3. So with top quality cleaning and top quality front end sound, the next step is the cheapest and most work intensive: buy lots of copies of your favorite records. At least five, and ten is even better. You will find Hot Stampers, and you will learn all about stampers that tend to sound good or bad, and this will help guide you in the future.
That, in a nutshell, is all there is to it. The devil is in the details of course; it took me about twenty years of serious collecting and audio exploration to get to the point where I am today, but there really are no shortcuts. Whatever work you do pays off, sooner or later. With the right cleaning fluids, stereo, and plenty of copies of any title, you will find that virtually no CD or current heavy vinyl reissue can compete with the Real Thing -- maybe one out of fifty or so can, depending on what you listen for of course.
If you go to our site and read all about Joni Mitchell's Blue you will see where we are coming from, on that record and hundreds more. And if you wish to play the Blue Game, we are happy to help! |
Thanks for adding your input Tom. Your site is what has inspired my to do just what you're recommending here. As I said, I will likely buy more from the site in the future but it's too pricey for me to justify building a large collection that way. Too bad they're not tax deductable. |
Sns, If you really want to hear what LPs are all about, you might want to reflect on the process that made them. Just like books, first editions of LPs are the key. You want the LP made in the country that the band recorded in, and the first press. Master tapes go downhill, compression and EQ get added, stampers wear out. All these things make getting the first press a paramount issue.
So, ELP's first release for example: You want the Pink Island edition from the UK. The American Cotillion label is a weak second and no other edition is worth playing as they all suck.
King Crimson 2nd LP: again, Pink Island, a second best is the second Island label with the pink ring. The bass on this record is amazing!
If you dig through your collection, I think you will find that your attitude about the LPs will change once you hear how important original pressings are!! |
Atmasphere, I have no doubt that many of those first editions sound great. As I mentioned previously, many of these records were purchased new in the 70's, others at record shows in the 80's. I would think most of those new purchases from the 70's would be first pressings, they sound lousy. On the other hand, some sound ok, or even good. From this, I would extrapolate that some of these 'original' lps sound lousy due to several considerations.
1. Perhaps they are not original pressings even though they were purchased close to their original release date. Perhaps they were using different stampers right from the get go.
2. Perhaps they were not using the 1st generation masters in all cases. They were using safety masters for some pressings right from the get go (thus the UK band on US release, others, who knows why).
3. The recording studio botched the job, these records will not sound good regardless of stamping or masters used.
I know some of the purchases from the 80's are not original pressings as they have different labels from the originals on them.
Perhaps later editions of 'original' pressings may sound better in some cases. These editions may have used master tapes and/or better stampers than those 'original' pressings.
To me, this whole issue of what sounds good or bad is a can of worms. I think Tom is the expert in this, he's heard lots of pressings, it seems there is great variability. Who knows what the hell you're buying! In the end you need to find someone you trust, or listen prior to buying. |
It's true, the only way to know what a given LP will sound like is to play it. 1st pressings and good stampers guarantee nothing. Tom Port states this on his site. Luckily I enjoy most of the pressings I've found. Part of the fun is in the hunt. |
Hi, with all due respect, almost every statement Atmasphere has made here is a myth which we discuss on our site when we do shootouts for some of the very records mentioned.
Just to address one: ELP's first album. The Pink Label can sound very good, but the Cotillion is clearly made from the same master tape and has much better bass and whomp factor on side two. Here is the extensive commentary from that listing:
This original Cotillion LP has THE BEST SIDE TWO WE'VE EVER HEARD! Lucky Man ROCKS on this copy like you won't believe. If you've got the system to play this one loud enough, with the bass power this album demands, you are in for a treat.
The organ that opens side two will rattle the foundation of your house if you're not careful. This music really needs that kind of megawatt reproduction to make sense. It's big bombastic prog that wants desperately to rock your world. At moderate levels it just sounds overblown and silly. At loud levels it actually CAN rock your world.
Folks, this is ANALOG at its tubey magical finest. You ain't never gonna play a CD that sounds like this as long as you live. I don't want to rain on your parade but digital media are seemingly incapable of reproducing this kind of sound. There are nice sounding CDs in the world but there aren't any that sound like this, not in my experience anyway. If you are thinking that someday a better digital system is going to come along in order to save you the trouble and expense of having to find and acquire these expensive original pressings, think again. Ain't gonna happen. This is the kind of record that shows you what's wrong with your BEST sounding CDs. (Let's not even talk about the average one in your or my collection. The less said the better.)
Although this copy is not as magical on side one as our best Brit, it's pretty close, one plus short of the coveted Triple. Side two takes the crown with Three Pluses, and deserves every one.
The Brit copies may take top honors for side one ("sweetness, openness, tubey magic, correct tonality, presence without aggressiveness, well-defined note-like bass, extended airy highs") but the Hot Stamper Cotillion copies KILL on side two. They really ROCK, with greater dynamic contrasts and seriously prodigious bass, some of the best ever committed to vinyl. The Brits are a bit too "pretty" sounding. They're too polite for this bombastic music. This music needs the whomp down below and lots of jump factor to work its magic. The Brits are super-low distortion, with a more open, sweeter sound, especially up top, but the power of the music is just not as powerful as it can be on these very special Cotillions.
This Cotillion on side one is a rare gem indeed, truly the best domestic we heard. It's not quite as smooth and sweet, but it's every bit as good in most other areas, and better in the bass. The Cotillion pressings of this album have bass that puts 99% of all the rock records in the world to shame. (And 100% of the half-speed mastered records!)
This is a case where, to get the ultimate sound, you not only need two copies, you need two copies made in different countries!
END OF SITE COMMENTARY
If you have fifty copies of this record, including plenty of imports, you will find out that the facts do not follow the logic.
Another case in point: Jethro Tull's Stand Up. The Sunray label Brit reissues consistently trounce the Pink Label originals. The commentary can be found here:
http://www.dccblowout.com/product.asp?pf_id=jethrstand%5F0108&dept_id=.
The best pink label sold for much less, and for good reason: the sound was not up to the best, and never has been.
I can cite scores, if not hundreds, of examples that break all the record collecting rules. It's what our site is all about: forget the rules, listen to the grooves. The grooves can teach you about records. Rules have a tendency to prevent you from learning about records. You're not going to play a record you "know" won't sound good, right? But what if it does?
Anyway, I don't really mean to get on anyone's case about these myths. They are all over the place. Like conventional wisdom they are comfortable and reassuring to believe, they even make a certain amount of sense, but as a practical matter they can only cause you to miss out on some great sounding pressings. We go out of way to refute them at every turn, and there are scores of listings that point them out on the site.
Our Manifesto discusses many of the same issues:
http://www.dccblowout.com/dept.asp?dept_id=14-006-013
I'm not saying buy the records from us. I'm saying let thinking about records take a back seat to listening to records and you will learn a lot more than the other way around.
Best, TP |
Humorem, Good work!
Over the years I would most definitely keep it to myself how many copies of a particular Lp I would buy searching for THE one to own.
Many just would not understand this process.
For the past twenty years I travel to Europe and always send back vinyl.
If your building a record collection today from scratch and want it all with music and sonics, your going to pay.
If your searching for that one or two all time favorite Lps perhaps from your youth, Better Records is the way to go.
I know whats involved. |
Humorem, naturally I would not make any comment about ELP's first album and the qualities of the pressings if I did not have them! I have had around 10 copies of the Cotillian press over the years, none of them could hold a candle to the Pink Island. I bought the Cotillian when it came out (it was one of the first records I bought).
So either there is a reference issue or there is a **vast** variability in the pressings, although I have found all the Cotillians to be quite consistent, as I have with the Pink Islands. The fact of the matter is that if you want detail, impact and quiet surfaces the Pink Island is the best place to find it in this case; IOW this is not myth, it is simply experience. |
When I got back into vinyl a few years ago I did not have too big a collection left from my younger years--just the stuff that was favorites or I thought difficult to replace with CDs. However, on a good turntable I was unhappy with probably half of them. I just dumped them--and didn't let it worry me. In fact it made me not feel so bad about getting rid of all the ones I did previously, knowing that probably so many of them weren't worth keeping either. As your system gets better the better LPs sound better and better but the weaker ones just sound more obviously weak.
I find that hunting down and acquiring excellent vinyl is one of the great pleasures of this hobby, and getting rid of lesser quality stuff improves the quality of your whole collection, reduces space requirements, and gives you a bunch of new titles to search for. Just think of it as the fun and challenge of collecting vinyl. |
I'm gonna jump back in:
Jethro Tull Stand Up: I've had U.S. Chysalis later pressing, it sucked. Then found U.S. early Reprise pressing, sounded great. Then bought on ebay for alot of bucks, original 1st UK pressing Island pink eye. Honestly, a little different (bass a little softer, rounder, mids have a more forward sound) but can't say it's better than the early U.S. Reprise.
ELP:
can't talk too much about 1st one, but Trilogy: U.S. pressings suck, too much distortion/overload, bad pressing. UK pressing much better but yes a little softer presentation but bigger soundstage and lusher presence in mids. Bought perhaps 10 yrs. ago, MFSL pressing which is WAY BETTER. Why all this MFSL trashing? Trilogy on MFSL is the bomb.
Brain Salad: decades ago had a early or 1st U.S. pressing which was very good... wore it out... bought another copy around 1980 or so and it SUCKED. Bought a Jap. copy which was better, but hash-y harshness to some extent, "clean" sound with smaller soundstage. Then found some unknown audiolabel reissue with 45 single, now this one sounds really good, but is quieter, mastered at a lower level or something.. you have to crank it up.
King Crimson: went thru several copies of Islands: U.S., 1/2 speed EG editions (way too tipped up treble!) finally found a 1st edition Island label UK pressing... this one is best in many ways but I find the treble too soft and recessed.
Back to Brain Salad: does anyone have a 1st issue UK version ? I cannot find one. |
I have an original, US not UK, first pressing of Brain Salad Surgery and it is spectacular. Trilogy is the best ELP recording regarding US first pressings. Tarkus is also very good.
Regarding MFSL trashing, some are quite good (Crime of the Century, Fly Like an Eagle) but most really suck (Sticky Fingers, Aja, Sgt. Pepper, Pictures at an Exhibition, etc). |
I played my Cotillion pressing of the first ELP album Thursday night. Sound was nicely transparent/detailed, but the bass drums on Tank didn't have the impact it should have, this should be foundation shaking bass. Don't know if its my pressing or vinyl setup. At this point, suspect my setup, still tweaking and have a ways to go. I just have a feeling this recording has a lot more to give. |
Xiekitchen, For Brain Salad Surgery you have to get the Atlantic press (I have yet to find an import of it). It will be the original dual fold cover, so check the label- the Atlantic issue is the first press, later issues are Manticore (Manticore logo at 12:00). The Manticores don't play the bass... |
Atmasphere:
Atlantic, huh... never seen one... I had the early Manticore US. (with diecut cover, poster). |
Brain Salad Surgery was released in mid-November of 1973. It is on Manticore, a label they formed themselves after making enough money from the first 4 albums.
According to the Album Discography web site anything on Atlantic, at least in the US, is a reissue and not an original pressing.
The first four albums were released in the US on Cotillion a subsidiary of Atlantic. |
Audiofeil, I was a big fan of that band when I was in high school. I got that record when it came out, and it was an Atlantic press. Years later, I wanted a copy in better condition, bought a Manticore and discovered that it didn't sound nearly the same.
The thing is, the Atlantic is hard to find! but you can easily find Manticores with an obviously later cover lacking the double fold. That suggests to me that the Atlantic press occurred fairly early on (leaving my own experience out of the picture). I wonder how accurate the discography website actually is? |
I have the Atlantic label pressing. I believe the Album Discography website is correct, in that I seem to recall buying this new, some years (early 80's) after it's original release. This also does not have the dual fold cover. |
Ralph,
I bought the album on release as I did with all albums way back when. Within the first few days in almost every case.
OCD? OK, guilty.
In any case I've never seen an Atlantic pressing. I know their next 3 albums Works Vol. 1, Works Vol. 2, and Love Beach (this album really sucks) are all on Atlantic.
What are the deadwax (stamper) codes on your album? Mine are ST-MC-732991 G and ST-MC-732992 H. There is an "AT" engraved opposite the deadwax codes. Presumably Atlantic?
The record is packaged in an Atlantic sleeve i.e. showing other contemporary releases on Atlantic, Atco, Cotillion, Rolling Stones Records, and Little David Records which are all subsidiaries of Atlantic. |
My Atlantic pressing has the same number codes, although followed with GIF on side 2, GIA on side 1. I also have a C6 or Cb opposite on side 1, what I believe is fH6 on opposite side of side 2. I also have a chet and some other markings I can't make out on side 1, and a G1 and some other markings I can't make out on side 2. Finally, I have what looks like LB-TTR) preceding the ST-Mc etc. on side 2. |
I just received a response from the principle administrator of the Albums Discography website.
The original Brain Salad Surgery in the US was released on Manticore only.
Atlantic reissued the album in 1977.
Thanks to all. |
Audiofeil, I got rid of the copy I bought new when, after 6 months of searching, I found a replacement that sounded as good as the first. So I only have the inner groove info from that one. If you want it let me know. |
No big deal Ralph.
I think the issue is resolved.
Thanks for taking your time though. |
I've had the same experience. Seems like the best recordings I have were made in the 50's. Might try a few Original Jazz Classics. Ten bucks apiece at AcousticSounds. |
Vinyl is/was no panacea. Capable of sounding great, but many poor or mediocre vinyl product out there, especially from the latter days of vinyl in the 70s and beyond. The good news is that remastered CDs done right and with proper care often restore the glory of many issues that were botched mostly for mass marketing rather than technical limitation reasons back then. |
Listened again to side 2 of the first ELP album on standard issue US Cotillion label (a .99 cents used acquisition) last night.
Definite thumbs up. Definitely vinyl done right, top 10-20 percentile for that genre. ELP's musical showmanship on keyboard, organ, and percussion is able to shine through and the overall sound and dynamics is close to top notch.
The record cutting I own does have a visible issue where the grooves were cut off slightly off center and you could see the tonearm gyrating to the left and right about 1/4 of an inch or so, nevertheless only a slight pitch variation effect could be noticed on the sound during longer notes.
A record cut off center is a quality control issue during production, I believe and is one common result found of the poor quality control overall applied to production of many pop/rock vinyl albums of the time, which often makes finding a really good copy of a mass produced title from that era a pot shot at best.
I have found over the years it is possible to eyeball the general sound quality of a particular vinyl album through visual inspection of groove quality and amplitude, flatness or lack or warp, and off center cuts even to some degree, but it is an imperfect art as much as a science.
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