Lyra Atlas experiences
o-holter, the most so called ''low compliance carts'' can hardly reach 60 microns on the mentioned tracking ability test. Increasing the VTF will not help. How would one determmine the right VTF by ''hearing method''? Anyway much more easy is to check by which lowest VTF this 60 microns value can be obtained. The usual recommendation with 1,5- 2,5 g are worthless in my opinion. |
o_holter -- regarding setting azimuth be aware that ensuring that the cartridge is level may have no bearing whatsoever on whether the azimuth is correct. What matters is the orientation of the stylus and many styli are far from accurately attached to their cantilevers. For example I own an Air Tight PC-1 and this brand is quite notorious for some sketchy stylus attachment -- 2 out of 3 of the Air Tight cartridges I observed at the last Newport show were canted visibly off to one side, including a brand new Magnum Opus. There’s no problem with this and if this is the correct setting for azimuth so be it (mine is a good several degrees off level as well) As far as the right method for setting azimuth by all means try a fozgometer but in my experience setting it by ear using a method such as this gives the best results Good luck! ps getting azimuth right has far more impact than any change anti skate, at least in my experience. With my current string/weight A/S set up I simply set it somewhere in the middle and am done, not sure I cam reliably hear any difference one way or another with this parameter |
0_holter....when azimuth is properly set there is great depth ...instrunents are in front of and behind others, the soundstage is very wide...sometimes beyond the side walls, images are sculpted in space with (almost) a black line around them...no bleeding left, and right...especially with the Atlas ( Or Etna which I also think is wonderful) All these elements, are what we audiophiles cherish in presentation. I need an arm that provides for this adjustment....I use the Fozgometer and its accompanying lp as my tool of choice. Providing I use a new battery every time, I find the results accurate, and easy to accomplish. I personally find that the use of anti/skate is detrimental to the sound. It may lessen wear of the stylus, but I have no concern about that. Using a/s on my system knocks some of the polish off of all that proper alignment contribute. If anyone reading this post disagrees with me, that's fine...I've heard all the arguments....however, I maintain my stand. Should you want to try to listen without a/s to find the differences, listen to only 1 instrument (I find percussion easiest to hear the differences). When you can hear what I'm writing about, it will be easier to find that sonic clue on all the other instrument and singers. My personal take is that a/s prevents the stylus from vibrating freely by exerting that outward force, and so reduces the stylus's ability reproduce those wiggles on the record. I only write what I hear....I'm not a scientist, or an engineer.....just sayin' |
Well, I thank you both, Raul and Nandric. Some more visual checking today - now with a USB microscope. Very interesting, although so far, I haven’t been able to stabilize the setup enough to get sharp close up images of the diamond. It seems to be OK, on my lower scale images. Since, from visual testing, the azimuth seems good, I did more listening, trying to get the antiskating optimal. The flute in the first Alpha Centauri track works well, and also my Lotta Lenya mono. I listen for how well the voice or instrument is pictured at the front even with large background dynamics (the "guru method" of listening). I find that the arm behaves very good with the anti-skating a bit relaxed from the weight, perhaps 1.4 ot 1.5. Listening to female vocal, going lower to 1.1 makes the sound more relaxed and open in a way, but also made the voice "crack up" a bit, as if she had smoked all her life. I tried to correct this with a bit more weight, but that did not help, so I went back to standard weight (1.72 g). In my system, if the antiskating is set too high, the whole soundstage sounds more controlled, but also restricted, tensioned. So it is a good idea to relax it a bit, but not too far from the setting equal to the weight, since then the sound will crack up, become too loose; it can sound like using too little weight. Perhaps the best way to set antiskate by ear - after listening to mono recordings for rough adjustments - could be to select the best-sounding stereo recordings. With this in mind we listened to Shelby Lynne, Just a little lovin. It sounded very good at ca 1.5. |
I am sorry but I was provoked by Raul's comment. Nobody mentioned in this thread anti-skate test records. I mentiond the tracking ability test and possible use of this test. What Raul deed is attributing to me statements about anti-skate test constructing this way the known ''stroman''. But tracking abiity test is not an AS test. His confusion of both illustrate his technical knowledge. However this tracking ability test can be used to determine possible probleems with both: VTF and anti-skate. |
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o-holter, ''As equal to the weight'' (VTF?) will not do because the other variable is the stylus shape. With low compliance carts I am satisfy with 60 microns ''pure'' (aka without any distortion from the right channel). The high compliance carts (MM) will track 80 microns with 1,5 g VTF even without any anti-skate. So there is no easy way out but those test records are useful for at least some orientation. To put it otherwise: to start with. |
Nandric - as related above, the test record method doesn't work in my case, I end up with far too much antiskate (2.7), and adjusting by ear I've gone down to 1.5 or so. And I recently got a clear message from SME saying don't use these tracks, instead start AS equal to the weight and fine tune by ear from there. These distortion tests are more for a rough first check perhaps - is the cartridge very off (or damaged). The Atlas sails through them without problems. |
All theory, after repairing in Japan my Kleos had a very high compliance and my bass speakers made synchron movements to the out of center vinyl. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1yvgCINtI4 |
Heavier arm - perhaps - I think J Carr wrote that it is possible to tweak the mass of the arm. I thought the SME V would be an OK match. I’ve tried some more mass (damping material) on the headshell and the arm but it didn’t work for me (not even some ’magic dots’ I had). I did some eyeballing tests now, using a loupe and then some 20x glasses. Stylus settles as before, a little to the right, in the hole in the front. Mirror test; it looks vertical. I had to turn down the AS to 1.1 to avoid the arm sliding to the right (the platter is level). I wanted to have a look at the stylus tip also, but the glasses are too weak. So I tried a little 100x microscope with light. I got nervous, however, it has to go extremely close the cantilever. Perhaps later I will try a small USB microscope that I also have. But well, so far, there is no visible sign that the azimuth is off. So it should be an OK starting point for listening tests. |
The simplest way to check the anti-skate is by ''tracking abiity'' test on the test records. The first distortion will appear in the right channel. By increasing the anti-skate force the mentioned distortion will disappear. So much about the causal relation. However one should not try to get those 80-90 microns ''pure'' because to much anti-skate is worse than no skate at all. |
The SMEV is a great arm, but not for a cartridge like the Atlas. The compliance is ~ 12x10 cm/dyne bei 100 Hz You need a heavier arm to get best results. I had a Kleos in an Origin Live Conqueror with 18gramm eff. mass and in a Reed 3P with the same mass. The SMEV is a great combination with Van den Hull cartridges. |
I don't dispute what anyone on these posts says...everyone hears differently and everyone has different components. I can only tell you what I hear. To these ears, there is no better cartridge that I have experience with, than the Atlas. I have had the SME V in my system, but although built like a tank, didn't have the alacrity I was looking for and replaced it with a VPI 3D. Perhaps (I don't know for sure), the difference was in the ability for the VPI to very accurately provide for correct azimuth. The difference in the presentation/performance of the cartridge having proper azimuth and being even a "smidge" off is enormous.. not just audible, but enormous... maybe the most important adjustment (for me). Another point is the (seemingly) never ending dispute regarding the use (or not) of antiskate. For these ears on My system, I hear an improvement with no antiskate...no matter which arm that I adjust. I am at present trying to evaluate the sound with/without a/s for a dispute on another site....but for the here and now, its no a/s for me. There is a very definite difference...its not in the increase of distortion on one side or another....my arm/cartridge tracks flawlessly with both methods....but its in presentation.....(still evaluating). |
I mailed SME, and got a clear answer: do not use the HFN test record with the SME V arm. Instead, start from the equivalent of the weight, and fine tune by ear, from there. OK! I am glad that my listening tests the last evenings led to the same conclusion. Ninetynine - thank you, I will try this some more, may make more sense now. |
Here some info from Christian Rintelen: 7. Adjust the skating force to zero and prepare yourself for a mean experience. The right channel will not show dynamics at all; it will sit in the corner totally bored and ignoring you. The left channel will sit in its corner like an evil ghost, considering to attack you in the next moment. It will sound very dynamic in a way that numbs the left half of your body. However, the dynamics will be nightmare-like artificial. Now you increase the skating force to a quarter and then to a half of the expected value. You will sense that the right channel comes more-and-more alive and the left channel sounds less dynamic, intimidating and artificial. This reduction is less than the increase of dynamics in the right channel; the while system becomes more dynamic. You increase now the skating compensation by *very* small steps until you reach a point where left and right channel sound equally dynamic. Then you increase further very small steps; both channels will grow more dynamic. One step too far and both channels loose their dynamics completely and sound dead. So you go back to the position where dymics and microdynamics were maximum. |
Listening tests make me think, better go back to the SME tuning, or a bit below . Testing, first, Lotta Lenya sings Kurt Weill (mono 1960ies heavy vinyl version), and next, Tangerine Dream: Alpha Centauri (1971). It has been argued that quadrophonic recordings are best, to set the anti-skating. I don’t have the quad version ot Alpha Centauri (twin virgin label), only a stereo version, but this works well also. In both cases, turning off the light and just listening, I tended to go down on the antiskating scale - it can be adjusted while playing, on the SME V - and towards a setting more like the factory default (calibrated scale), to get the best sound. Listening for the holographics especially (Tangerine Dream very good at that point), I went towards a weight equivalent 1.7 (corresponding to the 1.72 g Atlas weight) or even a bit down, to 1.5 or 1.4 on the scale. Much lower than the HFN test record results (2.7 - 3). I have to recheck - this is my impression so far. Happy listening! |
Hi, you wrote to set AS about 2,5 to avoid dirstortion in the right channel. What do you play when testing this? Do you use a tracking test record? I run a VdH Frog on the SME V with AS 1.0 and on the test record the left channel begin slightly to distort about 60mµ @ 300Hz Try to measure the antiskating mechanism like this. No really exact, but it will show you the course https://www.dropbox.com/s/3i8rnq3p55zd5q0/AS%20Messung%20mit%20Faden.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/blqmbi9o3ix5n72/AS%20Messung%20mit%20Waage.jpg?dl=0 |
A comment on setup: I have assumed that the anti-skating on my SME V arm was correct, and have dialed it in approximately like the weight (1.72 g), or a bit less. I think I have been wrong. I tried various methods: look at the cantilever deflection when it settles in a groove, use a blank record, use the HFN test record (side 2 track 1-4-8) - and even, my ears. Results are similar. A-skate needs to be set to 2.7 to avoid distortion in the right channel on the HFN tracks. I come roughly to the same conclusion using my ears. Music sounds fuller and both channels more in sync, at around 2.5 or so, or even higher. Although I have not found the exact spot, and my methods are limited. Since my arm is ca 15 years old, I wonder if the anti-skate spring has lost some tension over time. I have also found that the arm needs to be lifted a bit asymmetrically at the back, to get the best azimuth (cannot be directly adjusted on SME V). One behaviour seems a bit odd. When the cartridge is lifted, not playing in the groove, the inner part of the cantilever is quite precisely centered in the hole on the green front (looking in a loupe). When it settles in a groove, however, it changes downwards and to the right. This seems to happen pretty much regardless of where I set the anti-skating. The inner part moves this way, even when I cannot see any deflection of the outer part (with the diamond). I wonder, is this normal behaviour? |
Hi Sunnyboy1956 - thanks. For me, every step up the Lyra ladder has been worth it, although the cost level is now very high. I am mainly very satisfied with the Atlas, also compared to the Titan i that I used before. I have no reason to think it performs sub standard. My question is more about getting into the best optimal terrain. Thanks for the tonearm cable burn in advice, this is true, but mine is well used. How do you like the performance of your three Lyras all in all? Where do I want improvements? I want the music to sound even better. I think it is possible. I have recently confirmed, this is very much a matter of signal to noise. A stereo is like a radar picking up interference, and we don't want anything to disturb the sound. Since my main phono stage is on repair, I use a small solid-state stage. Today I found that by turning the plug, the noise from the unit was considerably reduced. Dressing the tone arm cable (singled ended Kimber KCAG DIY) also helped lower the noise level. |
Hi Oystein Like your self I have been a Lyra fan. I currently own the Atlas, Etna and mono Kleos. A quick question why do you think you are getting sub optimal results with your Atlas ? Have you heard it sound different/better to your ears in another system ? If your cart is properly aligned with a MintLP, VTF and VTF are properly set, I can suggest a tweak which paid huge dividends in my system, namely burning in the tone arm wire. I was told by the good folks at Lyra that the majority of tone arms probably underperform given the minuscule mV current that the cart generates. Best Pradeep |
Thank you! I have heard advice from others also, in the direction that the Lyra Atlas might sound better with better tone arms than the SME V. Although this is a good "work horse" I think. Suggestions are welcome, and if Lyra can comment, I am grateful. Regarding tubes - yes, I agree, maybe too much, but I like good tube sound. I have tried the Atlas with solid-state phone stages, and that is not my preference. I agree that the system has to "land". I am very happy having a system that lands, in the sense that it "grips" and "plays along" with my room. Best regards, Oystein |
Dear @o_holter: Because I owned/own or listen in other audio systems I already heard almost all the Lyra cartridges included that. Years ago I was convinced that the SME V was a good mate with Lyra's but latter on my mind changed. So, my first advise could be a diferent tonearm /better mate tonearm. In the other side I think your system has too many tubes where the Atlas can't really shines. I know very well your 3 tube items and the I/O is the one that makes more " damage " to the critical phono cartridge signal. Your system has " land " to improve but each one of us have a diferent opinion how to improve it and you can confirm it when other gentlemans give their opinions. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Contact Dom here- http://www.northwestanalogue.com/ |
