13. Boulder 2060 is just as fast sounding as the black system. It is the fastest sounding solid state amp i have ever heard. Incredible the speed and dynamics that this monster possesses.
Also, i just took both preamps out of the race and i am using the lumin s1 as my preamp for the first time. I am VERY VERY IMPRESSED here to say the least. I expected it to get smoked by the luxman and audio research ref 6 and that is not the case. It can hold its own. |
Ok guys. I see a lot of enthusiasm in regards to the sopra 3s!
Ok so they now have about 30 hours playtime. Here are 3 of my initial impressions:
1. Huge bass
2. Smooth highs with absolutely zero fatigue. It doesn’t matter what recording you play, the speakers don’t sound bright.
3. They disappear like Houdini. Mids are dead center and everything is really well balanced.
More to come in the next few days. They are really REALLY a satisfying speaker. Nothing sounds bad at all as long as you can control your bass. The diablo puts out massive bass with them but the ref10 and simaudio do not.
This my first rodeo With focal and Im telling many here it’s a damn steal. It’s an awesome speaker for the money. Is it better than the magico? Don’t ask... I won’t answer that because they are very different speakers. How different? I guess you all will need to stay tuned to find out... |
I am right now holding on to both and considering buying the matching boulder preamp. I just want to hear the full bolder sound and see what it does for me.
I tried the luxman yesterday and it sounded really amazing again and almost to the point me wanting to sell the boulder. I then went back to boulder and once I biwired the speakers then I realize the luxman holds its own if I compare both amps without biwiring but if I biwire the boulder since it has 4 binding posts then that’s when things change drastically and the boulder wins. |
Your issue is the direct stream connected directly. Get a preamp in the middle and some silver cables and that will fix you brightness. the directstream is good, but never better than an actual preamp doing the job. |
my sopras are literally thrown in the room and directly in front of to magicos. I just toed them in directly at me and i am about 9 feet away from them. I have not even tried to get them set up properly.
You know, the focal sopra 3 reminds me so much of the revel salon 2. It is incredible how much it brings back memories of those speakers.
That said, i had my wife listen to one track yesterday on the focal and then the magico and she chose the focal over the magico. This was also the same result with the person who helped me unpack the focals. He also chose them over the magicos.
I must get high powered amps for the magicos. What is making others choose the focals is their ability to spread the sound effortlessly with my current amps and the magicos although they do sound great, i feel they fall behind due to the lack of massive power. I suspect the magicos need just brute horsepower in order to sing more. Yes, now that the focals are here, i can tell their differences a little better. Yea, the bass on the focal gives the music this feeling of fullness that seems to be lacking on the magico due to its sealed design and also because again i dont have at least 500 watts per channel strapped to them. Maybe with more power i can get a sense of fullness from the magicos.
See how one never knows differences unless you own both of them at once? Of course if you get the magicos into your home you will blown away because they are an incredible instrument, but you would not know what else would satisfy you unless you had another speaker in there to try.
It is kinda like my daughter; she has never tasted any sort of soda so she does not know how good it feels to drink an ice cold coke so all she knows is her apple juice is really good too, but once she tries it for the first time then she will most likely be tasting something different that also excites her taste buds.
You don’t know what you are missing in what you have unless you have something else to compare it to right in your own room.
Of course the magicos will feel a little underpowered, even slightly anemic at times, but i can say that because 3 minutes before i got done listening to the sopras with full bottom end.
|
I was just told by boulder dealer that the 2060 will drop my jaw if I get the matching 2010 preamp. He said that the boulder isn’t even close to its full potential because the audio research reference 6 isn’t even close to the boulder preamp. Anyone here with boulder amps ? What’s your experience with boulder preamps??
|
I may buy a pair of 28b3 Brystons or believe it or not, a pair of 1.25kw McIntosh to see if their horsepower does anything.
I played around with the magico more Today and tried to get the right toe in, listening distance, etc and I got them to sound much better. They are so damn incredible with certain music. I need to get better amps. I just have a gut feeling on this one.
|
You are spot on. That’s why I’ve not given up on them. I just bought a laser tape measurer to get things as dialed in as possible. They need to be positioned perfectly and yes I won’t ever get the bass the focals give me but man they sound so deep and it feels as if someoek opened another door behind the music. We will see where I end up. Will it be the focals ? Will I stay with Magico ? we shall see... |
Hi guys: just came home with a pair of amps I did not expect to bring back but I needed to try more horsepower on the magicos. Guess what ? I was damn right!
They need gobbs of power. I just strapped on a pair of McIntosh 601s and man the speakers just sound 30% percent better easily. They sound larger, the excess high frequency energy from some recordings has receded and now they sound much more dynamic. It’s as if they took a shot of steroids by getting more current from monos. I’m very happy with this result. I will keep listening and will report back.
I will try the focals at some point tonight. Let’s see !!! |
Let’s not forget they are strapped to a ref10 preamp which is twice the money. |
|
I believe that McIntosh and audio research preamps is solid and great. That said, I may try pass labs 600.8 for the very first time. |
Midfi is an amp that sounds muffled in comparison to hifi amps. The average person couldn’t differentiate between a mid fi or hi fi amp but when you own both at once, it’s easy to tell them apart.
The McIntosh 601 helped big time but I also attribute this to them being Monos.
If the 601s can make such a difference, I wonder what a pair of 600.8 can do? Or luxman 900u Monos? That is what is triggering me now...
|
Ok guys so I’ve been listening for the last 2 hours and without me even realizing it, I caught myself listening at 85 dB... this is nuts because I’m typically listening at much higher volumes than this yet with this combination I don’t feel the need to put the pedal to the medal. I feel like I can comfortably hear everything in the music at around 83-85 dB. Hmmmm
|
Guys, so there are things we don’t think about here. First off, just because I said 85db, it doesn’t mean any amp that can do 85db comfortably will work. The massive current from Monos will sound very different than a small amp even though they are both at the same volume. The magicos need juice to come to life. Yes I’ll say it again, magicos need juice to get moving. I have tried 3 amps already with them and only the high horsepowered one wakes them up.
Also, I listened to the magico last night for hours and it’s a great instrument. It’s really a window to the music. That said, I have realized that accuracy can also be a bit boring and lacking emotion at times. It spooks the hell out of you at times because you hear so much more in the music but I also caught myself analyzing the music much more than ever before and guess what? I forgot to enjoy the music. This has given me food for thought. This made me realize that speakers that aren’t accurate and impose their sound signature isn’t a bad thing either. There is a place for both types of speakers. Here’s what I think so far and still have not chosen what I will do:
1. Wilson: aside from the bass issues I had in my room with the rear port, it’s a big sounding speaker. It has a huge sound with awesome dynamics. It actually grew on me in the 3 months I owned it.
2. Magico: the king of accuracy. It’s like the raw ingredients of each meal you eat without any seasoning added. Think of it as boiled chicken with steamed white rice (follow me here)
3. Focal: dynamic like Wilson and revel. Smooth, incredible oomph in my room with its downfiring port. Think of it as curry chicken with rice and beans. It won’t let you get most of the true taste of the music due to its added flavor.
Bottom line: Magico is electrostatic like accurate. There’s nothing it won’t do. Focal is not near as accurate as Magico but it makes music taste good.
Lastly, the magico is the only speaker that allowed me to feel the size of the room where the recording took place. Again, it gives you spooky feelings at times. |
Ok guys so this morning has been very productive in terms of the overall input I’ve received. Keep them coming !
With that said, I just had a dealer drop off for an in home trial the new SONORE SIGNATURE RENDU SE unit. The goal is to take the laptop out of the equitation and for me to begin streaming from this device while connected via usb to the esoteric k1 dac.
We shall see if this indeed makes a difference or not...
As far as speakers, let’s see what ends up happening when the dust settles. Things are very interesting right now. |
Hi,
I've never used any platforms with my amps. I throw them in my rack and begin to listen.
I will look at my pictures to see which amps I've forgotten to add to my review. I know I forgot to write about the plinius sa103, sa100mk3, Ati signature 4007, octave audio v110 integrated.
As i stated above, my front end are the Martin Logan Renaissance, Mcintosh c1100 preamp. Someone mentioned above why not tube amps ? It's simple, I use amps as part of my home theater too and tube amps DO NOT work well in a home theater application. They don't have the dynamic swing capabilities that solid state or class d amps have. I've tried them and they get lost with action scenes not able to keep up with the rest of my solid state amps. If I was only a 2 channel guy then yes I'd try a few.
|
All-
i will be responding to everyone tonight after I get off work. I will also add a few more amps to the list.
|
Alright guys, i just sat down and started to play these MC601s while i write what follows below:
Plinius SA100MK3: VERY AMAZING AMP. This amp has a gorgeous amount of detail and nice bass. i was very impressed by how much bass it retained even a low volumes which is a hard thing for many amps to do! I really don’t remember ANYTHING bad about this amp. It sounded very nice with my Dynaudio C4s.
Plinius SA103: I bought this amp because i thought the SA100MK3 was amazing so i had to try it. Anyhow, i found this amp very detailed, great overall tonal balance, BUT I DID NOT GET THE SAME OOMPH in the bass department that the sa100mk3 had. I called plinius several times and they told me this amp uses dual transformers and that i needed to re-wire my electrical outlet with a 12 gauge cable, etc, etc which i was not going to do. I felt this amp was a tad more detailed than the plinius sa100mk3, but if i am being honest here, i preferred the sa100mk3. It had bass that "thumped" at any volume level.
Octave Audio v110 integrated: i tried this unit with my Confidence C4s and i will say it REALLY impressed me when i first turned it on. I mean, it was like my speakers became something else. TONS OF BASS that i couldn’t believe what i was hearing. I liked it so much that i wanted to keep it and made it part of my home theater by using its passthrough mode. That said, it just didn’t really keep up with the rest of my amps. It got lost time and time again when action scenes came on. It almost felt as if my front speakers were not even playing at times. I later just realized that Tube amps just don’t have the dynamics and slam needed for movies. I must have tried all sorts of settings, calibrations, etc and i just couldn’t get it to blend with the rest of my set up. If i had a channel set up and no home theater, i would have certainly kept it.
ATI SIGNATURE 4007: Here i was again. Trying to see if maybe i didnt give the 6007 signature amp a fair shot when i first bought it so tried this less powered version. I found that it really is a solid amp if you are looking to do 100% home theater with occasional 2ch listening. This is the amp that you throw in a rack and shut the door and let it play for years and years and years without ever worrying about it. However, it is NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE as the JC1’s, pass labs, Krell 402e, etc.
EMOTIVA SA250: I was actually very impressed by this affordable amp. i connected my crazy expensive mcintosh c1100 to this amp and i really was amazed by how it handled my electrostatics. I could say that there were other amps that were far more expensive and yet they couldn’t hold a candle to this amp. It had plenty of everything and i really thought if this amp was made by someone else, they could charge 10 times more for it.
Someone above asked me why i don’t try tubes and i think i pretty much said why above. I just feel tubes are awesome for 2 channel and i probably would have an all tube set up if all i did was 2 channel, but in my situation i need an amp that can excel at both.
As far as the xa30.8, that is one great amp. I think it is the amp you use if you live in a nice studio apartment with a nice pair of focal diablo bookshelves speakers or Dynaudio C1s (or something like those) and you do serious listening late at night without ripping your neighbors walls off. This amp will give you every ounce of detail and 3 dimensionality that you wish to have, but IT IS NOT a monster and dynamic amp as the 350.5 or 250.5. or 250.8. The xa30.8 is a very intimate sounding amp. It is not the amp that will make your jaw drop when you let it blast as loud as you can handle. That is when you purchase the x250 or x350.
i want to be very honest, and i want to put this out there. i find the XA pass labs amps to be amazing amps, but you WILL BENEFIT from having speakers with powered woofers such as martin logan electrostatics, goldenear triton 1s,etc. In my personal opinion, the best amps to come from pass labs are the CLASS A/B amps. Any X series amp to be specific. They just have outstanding slam and will knock you back in your chair when you crank them up. Up until this day, i still have not heard a better slam and dynamics than the pass labs x series whether it be the .5 or .8.
One last thing i wanted to say is that i am writing this out for all of you who are looking to gather as much info as possible in order to make a smart buying decision. However, my reviews here are based on my own experience and not what some reviewer got paid to say on a magazine. i don’t get paid, i don’t make anything from this. It is just my passion/hobby. Some of you will recommend other amps from brands that nobody has ever heard of or that are so unknown that i simply won’t dare to buy. Why? because as you can see i go through amps almost on a weekly basis and i also need to be able to sell them when i want to try the next amp. Does this mean that i am missing out on a lot of other amps? i am sure i am, but i am also being smart about my buying decisions. Essentially the sale of each amp finances my next amp purchase. i can’t buy an amplifier that i simply can’t sell for 3, 4, 6 months etc.
One more thing i was thinking about doing was to give my opinion on processors. I have owned quite a few as well and can certainly give my personal opinion on many of these, but that will come later.
Anytime you see something that i am selling, rest assured it is only because i am looking to move on to the next thing and not because there is something wrong with it. I could be totally in love with an amp today and think it is the best I’ve owned, but i will still move on from it when something else catches my attention.
In the meantime, i will continue listening to these 601s.
cheers! |
the XPR monos were on my bucket list, but they are long gone now so that won’t happen anymore. I almost bought a pair of xpa-1 the other day, but i just didnt do it because i am still playing with the mc601s.
What i think emotiva benefits from besides what you mentioned above is from an excellent source and preamp/processor. I think my mx160 processor (which i am selling on here) sounded spectacular with these emotiva amps. I tried other amps i had here and i honestly couldn’t tell them apart. The mx160 made those emotiva amps sing amazing. People sometimes underestimate the importance of a quality preamp or processor. Right now, i am a believer in a tube preamp with a solid state for a 2ch and home theater application. It is tough to beat. |
All-
Starting with the bhk300s and below that list above, I've used the Martin Logan Renaissance. I no longer own the c4s because the minute I heard the Renaissance, my jaw dropped and went home and immediately listed my c4s. It was a day and night difference.
As far as the krell amps that someone mentioned above, no I haven't heard those. I don't find krell to have the bass that magazines rave about. I've had a lot of krell amps and NO OTHER AMP in my room gave me more slam than the 350.5 or 250.5 or the jc1s. Those are my top 3 amps when it comes to bass.
|
|
Pass labs x350.5 demolished my krell 402e in bass and midrange. The krell sounded flat and had zero fullness. The 250.8 is better than the 350.5
|
I keep saying it again, if you want slam and dynamics with fullness to the sound then you should stay away from the xa series from pass labs. Those are amazing amps but they are more for classical or instrumental music or if you like amazing midrange. They don't give you the bass attack or punch that some of us like.
As far as how I can do this and constantly buy and sell amps, I am very well connected and have had tons of relationships with many dealers. I have long and good standing relationships with them so there is no problem there. i also send them many of my friends to buy from them.
Ottablue, I am glad you liked the 250.8. I told you it was killer !! Glad you bought it from me and I didn't really have enough time with it but it was enough to hear a massive improvement from all other amps I've owned.
I just got finished listening to the Mcintosh mc452 and will list it for sale soon. Review coming ! |
I'm probably never going to buy that brand . As stated above, I purchase amps that I don't have a hard time selling down the road. I'm sure there are many amps out there that are excellent but being that this is an expensive hobby, I can't buy something that I can't get out of once I'm done with it. Another perfect amp that I'm curious about would be the Magnus audio line of amps. Those are on my taste buds but after doing serious research and talking to a few well known people, that's an amp you buy and keep because it won't sell and that's not something I'm willing to do.
|
How about you all think of me as the guy who spends his own money to try amps and give his personal opinion so that you all don't have to spend your own money going around trying all sorts of amps ? Isn't that great for most of you ? At the end of the day you all come on these forums doing your own research about a component you are curious about trying so my thread does exactly that. It gives you preliminary information about an item you are unsure about. I leave my feedback and you guys do your own analysis as to weather what I say makes you reconsider your next amp choice or it just confirms that you are buying the right amp.
|
Hi everyone,
i really will say I’ve learned so much from experimenting with both speakers. Here’s a curveball, I just got an opportunity thrown at me for a pair of Neoliths... I may have to send both the focals and magicos in order to swing this purchase. It’s not 100% done but the noise has started with my connection who said for me to stop messing around with magico and focal and just squash the hell out of both and get the Neoliths because this way I won’t have to question anything. This way I’m playing with a speaker that can rival 100k+ magicos all day long. Hmm .... man oh man. The thought of switching to those gets my mouth watery.
|
I spent some time last night with the focal and A few relatives who don’t have the same level of experience as we all do. Anyhow, his wife selected the magico as more of a “HD” type of sound. She said it sound as if she heard a little more information. Her husband said he liked the focals because it appears that the magico are “too perfect” like skin without a blemish and felt more trapped by the focal sound.
I thought their words were indeed
interesting.
The focal is indeed a very enjoyable speaker. I mean, i also heard a few things on the focal that were not so obvious in the magico. My friend also mentioned that for sure the focal seemed to have more midrange than the magico which I agree but lets keep in mind that the magico is about balance and not to boost any frequency over the other.
|
Well said jafox. I actually do agree you forget about the magico after you listen to the focals for a bit. It’s like you do appreciate the magicos insane accuracy but that does not mean you miss it when you hear the sopra 3s. |
Charles, and everyone here: THESE ARE MY FINAL THOUGHTS ON MAGICO:
I think the magico is a formula 1 race car. It’s beyond well engineered, incredible at all the extremes and think along the lines of you getting inside a formula 1 race car for the first time to drive it. How would it feel? Impressive. Just jaw dropping but can you drive it for 3 hours straight? Can you handle the massive heat in the cabin? The stiff suspension that connects you to the road? The loud exhaust notes ? Can you handle wearing the suit and the helmet for hours on end ? THIS IS EXACTLY THE VERY BEST ANALOGY I CAN GIVE. I CAN NOT THINK OF A BETTER WAY TO DESCRIBE IT.
|
Last thing i still don’t know which speaker will remain and which one will go. Both do great things in their own right.
|
Tempting techno. I wouldn’t mind getting the 900u amps again. |
|
I appreciate your words viber. Makes a ton of sense. I did own the clx art before for a little bit and it was incredible. Just beautiful to listen to and I’d say I preferred it over the 15a renaissance. As far as the neoliths, yes I have a possible deal aligning and yes I would need to sacrifice the magicos plus a few other pieces.
I spoke to Martin Logan and they said the speakers would work just fine in my room because they don’t interact with side walls.
I was told that yes I won’t be able to hear them at their full capability because they need a bigger room but that even in my room they will blow away anything else I’ve owned simply because it’s a massive panel sending you a large picture of information that you can’t hide from.
I’m not 100% mentally ready yet for them but I would say I’m about 70% there.
One thing that stuck in my head today was something that someone said to me which was: “ it doesn’t matter how many more speakers I bring here. It will take one hell of a speaker to beat the neoliths which will cost substantially much more money”
That comment stuck with me. It kinda gave me the feeling of not looking back after entering something like the neoliths because your ears will be used to that massive sound that will make most other speakers sound small and lethargic in comparison.
So essentially let’s just say I’m only enjoying 70% of the neoliths because of my room. Well even at 70% of their capabilities the neoliths will destroy a boat load of speakers. |
That’s something I was told as well. That the neoliths have been in small rooms and they sounded incredible. |
So the sonore signature se did not make any difference from my laptop. I only streamed tidal so I was warned that maybe for tidal it won’t be as effective. Long story short, if you’re streaming tidal and you are using an outstanding dac like the esoteric k1 that I’m using, it doesn’t make sense to use the sonore signature se. It didn’t make any real difference that I could pick up through the magico. My laptop sounded just as good. That is a testament to the esoteric dac more than anything. |
The neoliths do not interact with the side walls. This is huge for me because my room is only 15 feet wide. Electrostatics are a different Animal than the vivid audios were. You are comparing apples to oranges. They couldn’t be more different. The only thing they have in common is the sheer size.
The only reason why I can’t just do it ASAP is because of the logistics. Even the magicos were a project to get inside the living room. Heavy as hell so imagine how the neoliths would be. They won’t fit through the door so they have to come in through my sliding door and at a 45 degree angle outside of the crates. |
I use a MacBook with roon and connected via usb to my esoteric k1 with a wireworld platinum usb. |
Rendu was connected via USB to my esoteric k1. I was streaming using roon from my iPad. I found zero difference between the sonore and my laptop. I’m actually willing to say my laptop sounded a little more detailed believe it or not. The sonore was probably a little warmer but no way in hell its worth 3295 dollars in my system.
What I’m thinking it could Be is the fact that my esoteric k1 does not give a damn where the signal is coming from. It will internally turn that signal into what it needs to.
|
Hi guys and thanks for all your input in regards to the neoliths. I want all the feedback possible.
That said, yes I agree the neoliths are physically huge and not my first choice in terms of its sheer mass but the sound I may get from them might a game changing experience. Think about it, 2 huge panels creating that kind of sound. How could you miss any sort of detail or information within your music? How could you miss any cable upgrades? I think it becomes a matter of their size at that point what impresses in terms of sound. I am a believer that when you own something so huge, for the most most part anything else will sound small and compressed in comparison.
Its kind of like my Yukon XL. You step inside of it and you feel like you’re inside the President’s ride. Big, spacious, plenty of leg room, very comfortable etc but then you get inside your friends Lexus rx350... now you don’t have all this leg room, the big ride feeling with tons of comfort all around you. You lose the massive torque and grunt of the 6.2 liter engine, towing power and so on... I feel like owning the neoliths would be exactly the same thing. Your ears will be used to that massive wall of sound that just about any other smaller speaker you hear will sound much smaller and present less. This doesn’t mean it will be worse, but you can’t really make up for sheer size. Another example would be a projector compared to a tv. Yes you can get a quality 4k 80 inch tv but it WILL NEVER give you the feeling of being there the way a 120-160 inch projector screen can. You won’t get the feeling of being at the movies when you watch a movie through a tv. It’s impossible. Trust me I tried this myself after owning projectors and now owning a 77 inch tv. Every time I watch a movie it feels as if I’m watching tv.
It is exactly this feeling what is steering me to the neoliths. Knowing that at that point and once you own something like it, anything else will seem inferior in comparison. You are pretty much at a level in terms of speakers that you really won’t question what other speaker to get. |
The rendu was connected and used roon. I streamed tidal. That’s all I did. It was no big improvement at all |
Rendu connected to the router using wireworld eclipse 7 Ethernet.
Rendu connected to the esoteric dac using wireworld platinum usb cable.
Rendu connected to the ps audio p20 power conditioner using wireworld silver 7 power cord.
Laptop is simply turned on and connected to WiFi and running roon.
Me sitting on the couch using iPad to stream tidal via roon through rendu.
Results? Zero. No different than using my laptop and connecting straight to my dac with the usb cable. |
I have zero knowledge of those speakers, but if they are so efficient, i recommend a small pass labs amplifier like a pass labs x30.8 for example. It is plenty of power to make those speakers truly sing. |
|
Alright men,
lots of information in regards to electrostatics. im personally a fan which is why I’ve owned the ethos, montis,summit, 13a, 15a, clx. Each had their pros and cons but the clx blew me away. They had a midrange that I was never able to get from any other speaker ever. Not even Magico. That said, did you notice my journey above with Panels ? Each model got larger and larger ? If I do the neoliths, I expect them to truly recycle the Magicos, Wilson’s that I’ve owned. They must MUST destroy anything else I’ve owned. There shouldn’t be a single speaker that I’ve owned that close remotely close or else I’ll be extremely disappointed.
I will know if the neoliths will happen next week. The deal is almost finalized, but I don’t count on anything until it’s done and on their way to me.
On top of that, I am also negotiating my next pair of Monos which I hope to try with Magico before they are gone. |
My goal if I get the neoliths will be to bring home these:
pass labs xa200.8
agostino momentum
agostino progression
Pass labs xs300
gryphon Mephisto
gryphon antileon evo
and if the Stars align then I’ll do the dartzeel 458 Monos. I just don’t think I can get a deal on these. So far the agostino amps have presented a challenge for me to get a deal on. I have to wait until a dealer takes them in on trade or finally someone sells theirs. Pass labs xs300 I can get tomorrow at a great deal but the heat is a cause for concern for me.
Guys, the neoliths could happen but it’s not a done deal. The logistics to bring a speaker of that size are no joke. I pretty much have to take a day off from work just to take delivery and bring them in the house plus hire 3 men to help out. I also think about the time when they need to exit my room someday... it’s one hell of a job to do.
I don’t want anymore electrostatics unless it’s the neoliths. |
I have no experience with Ayre, but a local friend of mine has the pass labs 350.8 and ayre mxr twenty and did extensive A/B comparisons in his room and he preferred the pass labs with his rockport speakers. He said pass labs had more low end punch and more soundstage width. Long story short, he sold the ayre monos and kept his pass labs.
I do not really care for ayre to be quite honest. I have not heard it but all the reports i have had from people who i know very well keep saying the same thing to me which is that they are way overpriced like Mark Levinson and they really arent outperforming everyone else like their price tag dictates. |
Ok guys, i have a couple of updates. I now am the proud owner of Sonus Faber IL Cremonese speakers and its insane how amazing this speaker truly is. If you remember correctly, i praised the martin logan rennaissance for being the best speaker i have ever heard until i heard these Sonus Faber.
Having owned the sonus faber amati futura, olympica 3s, olympica 1s, i can honestly say that i was not impressed at all. I thought they sounded thin, lethargic, narrow soundstage and zero bottom end in my room.
I was very nervous and skeptical about these because i had not been impressed before by sonus faber. That said, the minute i played these speakers, i knew it was something special. It is seriously leaps and bounds better than the logans. I want to say that now i am enjoying a massive soundstage that expands from parking lot to parking lot. Beautiful midrange and highs and a very accurate bottom end.
I am currently running mark levinson 536 monos and audio research reference 6 as my front end. This coming weekend i will have my pass labs 350.8 back in my house and will analyze things again.
Lastly, if you read my thread, you would know i have owned the plinius sa103 and sa100mk4 which i really liked. That said, the plinius sa103 sounded really amazing, but lacked bottom end. I have to believe it is the typical class a design and quite frankly that is the only complaint i have about this amp. i tried class a and class ab modes and nothing. The bass remained too gentle for my taste.
Anyhow, i just pulled the trigger on a plinius sb301 mk2 amplifier and i expect it to be a damn good challenge for my x350.8. I think that amp has enough attributes to make it a dog fight. It is said that it has sledge hammer bass and massive dynamics so it will be interesting to see how it does against my x350.8.
Things are going to get interesting again ! |
hi Denon,
keep in mind that the sb301 has 2 different versions. i bought the mk2 version which i heard is significantly better than the original sb301.
Biggest difference between the 250.8 and 350.8 is of course the power reserves which puts you in a better position for the future with the 350.8.
The 350.8 has more bass without a doubt. I would say that if you listen at low volume levels, you are not missing much by staying with the 250.8. If you live in a small apartment, etc i would say save your money and keep the 250.8. However, if you like upgrading constantly like i do and like to occasionally blast music, then you are a candidate for the 350.8. The sound is fairly similar on both, but the 350.8 is always going to have more market and will be easier to sell. It is an amp that you can use for 5 years and then sell it in a day. I have owned 350.5s and they sold in days after i listed them. It is one highly desired amplifier.
As far as the biggest difference between the futuras and cremonese, they sound like 2 different speakers. They sound like they are not even made by the same company. Cremonese is the new sonus faber sound and the futuras is the old, laid back sonus faber sound. Cremonese sounds BIGGER than the martin logan renaissance and remember that those are HUGE panels on those electrostatics which should just tell you the kind of speaker that the cremonese are. I do not like anything from sonus faber other than their top 3 models: cremonese, lillium, aida. These share the best of the best design and technology and every other model just shares the aesthetics but the sound is thinner, lethargic, anemic, etc.
|
Yes, the new sonus faber tradition line should be killer to say the least. i am glad sonus faber went away from the whole "laid back" sound. I totally hated that sound and the soundstage was narrow as well without much low end punch.
Most dealers want to make a sale and i get that. They need to make money and i respect that, but i am more of the type that does research and selects my next move very carefully and then report on what my findings are. I don’t make a dime from this thread at all and i don’t get compensation from the brands that i have praised here. As a matter of fact, sometimes i read reviews on certain magazines and i see the associated equipment that was used to present a review i realize that i have better and more reputable gear that i could use to do reviews myself. I would actually love to do that, but i am very blunt and without a filter and so if i receive a piece of equipment that i feel is terrible, i will make sure i say that because i can’t sugar coat things.
I still have pass labs, simaudio and luxman and MAYBE Mark Levinson as the top dogs as far as refinement, finesse, detail, clarity, soundstage and precision. i call this tier group the "ferrari" group.
As far as the "mustang 5.0" tier group, i would have krell, classe, bryston, belcanto, parasound halo, mcintosh. These would be those with plenty of horsepower, with punch, capable to drive anything, but do not necessarily have all the finesse and depth that the "ferrari" tier group has.
The last tier group would be the "bang for the buck". These are amps that are great and do a lot of things really well. They have power, good detail and dynamics and are well rounded, but lack the extra detail, decay, layering and bass accuracy found in the first 2 groups. I would put emotiva, cary audio, ati, theta digital, nad, parasound classic, rotel.
If you are looking for an amp to build a system upon, ALWAYS shoot for an amp that has more than the needed power when possible because this will lay the foundation of your system today and tomorrow. I say this to some of you who contact me asking for advice. Don’t skimp on amplification when possible. That said, just because an amplifier has 300 watts per channel does not mean it is better than one with 150 watts. Not all watts are created equal. REMEMBER THAT.
If you are building a system, your order of priority in terms of what you need to buy and in which order should be as follows:
1. Speakers
2. Preamplifier
3. Source
4. Amplifier
I could see why some of you would have the amplifier as #3 and the source as #4. I realized that sources are a huge part of this game. I learned this with the sonus faber cremonese more than ever before. You can’t purchase a pair of speakers that are 45k dollars and use an oppo 205 as your source or a sonos streamer or a laptop, etc. That is like buying a ferrari and buying cheap engine oil, cheap chinese tires and cheap air freshener. Really?
If you buy a speaker that is up there in terms of value, you also need to look at your front end. You need to evaluate what other components need to go and replaced. Getting better speakers do not fix all your sound problems. The right equipment also needs to be thought out in order to make the entire experience that much more real. Anytime you switch speakers, that is just the beginning of what you are about to embark on. You now need to first identify if your amp can push them (see why i said to buy a quality amp from the get go is important?) and then buy your preamp according to the flavor that you seek. If you are looking for a musical tone then go with a tube preamp, etc, etc. That should be the thought process. |
Agreed Bill. Plinius is grea stuff but not everyone is going to be spending the extra money to upgrade their electrical system etc. Plinius should think about these things. To me, the 100mk3 was better sounding with my dynaudio c4s. The bass was better.
Nothing beats the pass labs 350 or 250 in terms of bass though. It's a game changer. I felt as if all of a sudden the bass was more energized and deeper without me touching anything else.
Pass labs is the top of my list at this time. Overbuilt, amazing in every way but they do run warm and don't fit in racks so there's a compromise there. |
No i haven't. I've only had the theta dreadnaught d and It was ok. |
It's not so much about bass but rather the fullness in sound. There's nothing more that I hate than an amp that sounds thin and costs tons of money. I like fullness and huge soundstage with the right oomph when needed. A good analogy would be that I don't buy a mustang so that it sounds like a Honda Civic with a muffler when I put the pedal to the metal. I like muscular full sounding amps with enough enough sparkle up top so that I don't get ear fatigue.
|
They have powered woofers and yes you can hear the change in bass tone as you change out amplifiers. I noticed this when I owned Montis. Contrary to popular belief, the Martin Logan electrostatics have powered woofers that let you hear more bass if the amplifier has better low end punch. Please refer to the stereophile review of the montis where they can validate what I am stating here. The bass improves and sounds as if you went to the back of the speaker and turned the dial up a few notches.
After I sold the montis, I tried salon 2s, goldenear triton 1s, B&W 800s, dynaudio c4s, and almost owned the klipsch palladium 39f but one day I decided to go and listen to the Renaissance. They were connected with a simaudio preamp and stereo amp and I used my iPhone with a crappy RCA cable and streamed Spotify which is a mediocre source. Well, my jaw hit the floor. I couldn't believe what I heard. I have ran these Renaissance in full range mode while watching movies and turned off both of my JL audio fathoms and the Renaissance destroy the JL audio subs. They just do everything right. |
