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My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass. It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


whitecamaross

Showing 50 responses by whitecamaross

whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
If pass fails then I’m coming after momentums.
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I can’t think of a speaker with what you asked. After owning magico, I can’t see myself going back to warm speakers. The magico tweeter can get a little hot but I also believe it’s incredibly transparent. That said, it is more refined than the focal tweeter. I think of the focal tweeter as the unfinished version of the magico tweeter. Both are beryllium.
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
my beloved simaudio 860a power amplifier has now been listed. It is ONE HELL OF AN AMPLIFIER that many of you should not overlook. 
I think i will regret this one. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I must have blasted my magico today to beyond concert levels and these speakers remained composed. Not an ounce of compression. I’m very impressed. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Thank you guys for sticking out for me and for keeping  the thread going forward. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
My simaudio 860a has now sold to one of my followers. I will regret this one but it was time for me to let it go. 
The simaudio 860a is the closest sounding amp to the luxman 900u but it doesn’t run as hot as the 900u and it’s lighter. 
Glad to see it go to one of you guys !
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I will be addressing your questions later. 
I am looking at a pair of momentum 300s as we speak. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Those momentums are Too high in price... the upgrade to m400 costs 15k and I’m not going to do that.
Anyhow guys, I got 20a outlets installed and they are running. I will get outlets down the road but for now I need to evaluate my set up with the 20a outlets and see if I can hear any real difference.
The 200.8 will hopefully hit my door by memorial weekend. I have massive expectations for them since they will have dedicated 20a outlets. I don’t want any bs or excuses. They either impress me or they will fail to do so. The xs150s were indeed amazing when I had them and they weren’t connected to 20a outlets.
I like having these power hungry magicos in a way. They are like a m1 tank. You can’t strap on a weak engine to something like it. No weak engine will get that tank in motion. 
Lastly, as I stated before: the magico will force you to go big or go home in terms of amplification. There’s no way to beat around the bush with them. 

whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Here are a couple of things guys:
1. I can’t speak about dag amps. I respect his work and what’s he’s done and I honestly don’t think the momentum amps are laid back. 
2. My pass 200.8s will have less power on paper than the 601s but would you Believe me if I told you the 200.5s had a massive amount of power when I owned them ? They sounded like 700 watt per channel class ab amps in terms of loudness. 

i have a chance to get a couple of mc2301 McIntosh amps locally. I wasn’t looking for more McIntosh but I sold my 601s already and it will be about 2 weeks before I see my 200.8s so I am now contemplating a pair of mc2301s that are local to me. 
Yes this is half the power of the 601s but I recall being very impressed by the 2301s when I owned them. The only thing I thought was not too good was the bottom end. It was somewhat loose. 
Decisions decisions... should I get the 2301s... or should I just hold off until the 200.8s arrive...
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Hi guys,
i think it’s time I share a few things that some people don’t seem to understand. I’ve learned most of this due to the vast experience I have with power amps. I don’t go by reviews from magazines which don’t really tell you the full story. I go by my experience and me actually owning the equipment. With that said, here we go:

1. Speakers: who said you need to buy amplifiers with the same or less power than what your speakers can handle ? That’s a stupid mistake. What blows up speakers for the most part is DISTORTION NOT EXCESS CLEAN POWER. If you own a speaker that hands 300 watts and you select an amp that has 150 watts per channel or a second amp with 500 watts per channel, chances are higher that the amp with 150 watts is going to damage the speakers faster than if you were to feed the speakers with more clean power than what they can handle. The less powerful amp will clip and begin to introduce distortion way before the other amp is. This distortion is the prime reason why the speaker would begin to kill its drivers. BUYING AMPS WITH MORE POWER THAN WHAT THE SPEAKERS CAN HANDLE IS NOT A BAD THING!!! It’s actually a good thing !

2. Listening at low volume vs high volume:
it has been brought to my attention that some of you listen at low volume levels. Please keep in mind that each amp sounds very different at different output levels. Some amps only hit their stride at moderate volume and others hit their stride at low and moderate levels. You need to figure out with an actual sound decibel meter how loud you listen on average and then take this into account when you select an amp. I’ve owned amps that fell apart at low volumes and only came to life when you put the pedal to the metal. Some amps sound thin at low volume. Some sound good at low volumes. Choose amplification wisely.


3. AMPLIFIERS SOUND BEST WHEN CONNECTED STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL:
yes!!!!!! This is a true fact. Amps seem to open up more when they have full control of the available electricity. I have tested this theory many times and they always sounded best to me when connected into the outlet.



whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Esoteric k1 dac/sacd 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Gs150 to be discontinued in 2 months. Dealers who have inventory will be unloading these at dealer cost perhaps. I decided to wait and snatch one once the dust settles. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
ok guys... i couldn’t resist so i pulled the plug on the audio research gs150 today. i have had it playing for about 2 hours and here are my brief impressions:

1. Gobbs of detail. Layer of detail on top of detail. Think of it as ordering your favorite alcoholic drink, but add an extra shot of liquor. in other words, twice as much detail as before.
2. i don’t recognize my music. It feels as if each song now sounds different in a good way. Crazy separation and background noises that i didnt hear before.

3. i do not have to turn it up to make the music come alive. I hear every nuance, detail, and particle of each song at low volume.
4. FAR, BUT FAR FAR FAAAAAAAAR BETTER match than the pass labs 350.8 is with my sonus faber cremonese. It is not even close in terms of detail. I can’t believe how "laid back" my 350.8 sounds when compared to the GS150. Audio Research and Sonus Faber synergy is UNDENIABLE.

Those are my initial impressions. More to come later this week!
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Cables should be next on my list. Right now I'm just getting acquainted with the sound signature of this amp. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Hi guys, 
a couple of things I want to discuss:
lalitk:-- the added statement you made about my end game being to sell for a profit isn't really the case. First off, I don't have to keep this thread alive in order for me to do what you stated above. I could do that without sharing any of my findings with any of you. I've spent close to half a million dollars since I started this thread. i share this with you all and YOU ALL take my feedback and make a decision as to what you want to buy. I don't hold a gun to anybody's head forcing them to buy anything. 
That said, i also want to add that MANY OF YOU have messaged me asking for amp and speaker recommendations  on my experience and some of you have even bought  amps from me and have been very happy with my recommendations. 
If you all want to go spend the same money I've spent in order to do a trial and error until you find what you want then sure you can do that. 

Fsonicsmith---- I've owned other tube amps. If you followed my thread you'd see I've owned the McIntosh mc2301s, mc275 mk6. 


Minorl---- I appreciate your view on what I'm trying to do here. I'm glad you find my thread of much use in search of the best amp for your current set up. You and many others are what make me want to keep this thread alive. I've had phone conversations with some of you who have thanked me for keeping this thread going. I don't bullshit or sugar coat any product. I leave that for dealers and magazines to do. That's their job. Not mine. 


As i stated before, I gain nothing from keeping this thread alive. Dealers don't pay me to help them move any product at all. I hand pick my amplifiers based on price and resale value and if it's a product that I feel has synergy or potential to to take my system to the next level. If some of you find my thread biased, wrong, not accurate etc then don't follow my thread. Change the channel and move on to reading somebody else's thread. 
My thread is one of the few threads that is constantly updated and keeps going and so it will always have a following. If I had a YouTube channel and did my own reviews, I'd probably be making money from YouTube from all the views I'd have. It's simple and easy to do but I also have a family and a life and don't have time to put that effort in. 

Once again, take my feedback about amps as my personal input. Not everyone will agree with my input but some of you will agree with it. With that said, let me go downstairs and continue to listen to my gs150 / ref6 preamp combo. Cheers !
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Thanks Dave. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
One hour into my listening session and I’m having mixed feelings. Yesterday I was very impressed and today im like in the middle. Not sure if it’s that this amp goes through that phase where it sounds bad and then it gets better with time ? I have read that there are certain amps go through a process of charging and discharging their capacitors before they sound good. I believe the Jeff Rowland 925s are the amps that go through this process.
Anyhow, one interesting thing Is that I’ve been playing with switching the speaker cables from the 4ohm to 8ohm connections to see what happens. My speakers are a 4ohm load but I connected one speaker on the 4ohm tap and the other one on the 8ohm and I hear more midrange on the speaker that’s connected on the 8ohm connection. Very interesting indeed.
On another note, this amp is starting to give me the impression that it is unforgiving. Although it's tubes, it still is transparent enough to let you hear bad recordings sound bad. This wasn't the case with the Levinsons. They sounded pretty much good with any sort of source and the sonus fabers. 

whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
VERY IMPORTANT TIP: I know some of
you might not believe this but you need to try this tip and report back to me. Anyhow, I didn’t believe this until I spoke to a fellow audiophile who’s a doctor. He said to me about 4 months back to try to do critical listening in the morning after a full night of sleep. He said that at night after a long day of work, the human brain starts to shut down all your senses. Think of it like this, ever noticed how your vision gets blurry at night when you’re tired and you start to rub your eyes ? That’s your brain signaling and beginning to shut down your senses so you can go to sleep. Well it does the same thing to your ears by  beginning to tune out noises in order to make you fall asleep. This in turn makes you hear less efficiently at night. Makes sense right ?
So next time you do some critical listening, try to do it in the morning after you are fully rested and you may find the true sound of
your current set up. You’ll thank me ;)
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Thanks for the feedback. I now always say try to pause from passing a judgment quite fast on any amp. I need to listen at night, day, afternoon and try to be rested. Preferably without having used any sort of headphones before. The less exposure your ears have had to music from a car or iPhone headphones etc, the less tired your ears will be. 
As far as powercords, I'll have to order one because as you know audio research has these 20a power cords on one end of the cable so my aftermarket powercord won't work which is a pain. 
At this time, I'm shocked that the 8ohm taps have more volume and more sparkle than the 4ohm. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Thanks david_ten. It’s certainly not easy to do this. It takes patience and constantly taking apart the rack shelf to fit new gear plus rerouting cables etc. Indeed, it’s not for everyone what I do. Lifting monster pass labs amps out of their boxes all by myself has left me with battle scars on my hands and forearms from the sharp heatsinks plus a few herniated disks. That said, it’s still a good feeling that I continue to enjoy until that day arrives when I’ll feel like I’m done with it. I was very much into muscle cars for many  years  but i can’t spend a full weekend working on engines and exhaust systems and not spend time with my family. I realized that I couldn’t continue such long hours on my back turning wrenches so I put that part of my life to rest. I’ve always enjoyed music and I took it to another level once I had put the wrenches away. I enjoy this hobby because it truely doesn’t take anywhere near as much time as working on cars did. I’ve always had hobbies and feel it’s extremely important to have one otherwise life could get boring. I couldn’t be happy if my life was all work work, come home, eat, shower and go to sleep and repeat again and have zero pleasure. That to me isn’t living. To live doesn’t mean you are alive. Being alive is actually enjoying your life with whatever brings you joy.
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Thanks for the feeeback fsonicsmith. I will keep everything in mind in regards to your input. I love it the amp at times and not so much other times. It could be me being tired perhaps and not having rested ears. Not sure yet. That said, I can confirm this amp sounds better than my 350.8 does with the sonus fabers. It has plenty of clarity and detail and does so much right. 
I'll keep trying to let it break in for a few more months and then see what turns out. 
I will also attempt to find another solid state amp and see if there's one that can give this amp a run for the money. I thought about a pair of krell 900e monos or Jeff Rowland 925s but I'm not quiet sure. 
I almost bought a constellation centaur stereo amp as well but that deal fell through. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Well tomorrow the 2301s hit my door... it will be interesting to see what I think of them after not owning them for 2 years. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Mcintosh 2301s are on their way. I am also thinking of using a single jl audio f212 right in the middle of both speakers for added mid bass. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
The 2301s are in the house!
stay tuned !  Updates to come later on in the day !!
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Immediate update: the 2301 kills the 601s. No contest there. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Rel feels more musical based on what I heard. That said, the only reason WHY I was (not anymore) going to get a f212 is because the same person who sold me the 2301s was going to sell me his at a great deal and he was just going to bring it with him. A lot of times I try stuff again because I come up on deals. THIS IS HOW I ENDED UP WITH 2301s yet again. I wasn’t looking for them. Just like if someone called me right now and gave me a crazy deal on a pair of krell 900e. Am I looking for them ? Hell no. Would I buy a pair if a deal came to me ? Hell yes.
My wants are momentum 400s. Possibly a pair of 900u Monos again. THOSE ARE what I desire now. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I CANT BUY ANYTHING ELSE THAT COMES MY WAY AT A GOOD DEAL.
In this particular case, I had to take 3 mc2301s in order to get a deal. What the hell do I need 3 for ? Well I don’t need 3 but it’s what the deal was so I have one sitting in the corner looking all pretty.  Who knows, Maybe I list it. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
McIntosh MC2301 vs mc601:

1. 2301 is far more detailed
2. 2301 has mids that the mc601 tried to imitate but never duplicate.
3. 2301 has a larger soundstage with more air around instruments
4. 2301 has you engaged.
5. 601 has nothing on the mc2301
6. Was it a coincidence they haven’t replaced the 2301? Nope. 
i don’t even need to hear the 1.2kw. I had those long enough to say that they lose to the 2301.
In my opinion, without taking the 2.0kw into account, the 2301 is THE BEST AMP from McIntosh.
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Yes when compared to the Luxman 900u, Rowland 925. I still have those ahead. Now, let’s not forget that im enjoying these amps and I attribute this to the fact that they are the first set of tube amps I use with magico. I’m now wondering about the audio research 160m. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Gryphon sounds good with magico. No question about it. However the ref10 and McIntosh 2301 is far more musical and engaging. I’m starting to feel like magico does wonderful with a full tube set up. It becomes such an amazing combo. Tweeter doesn’t get hot, bigger mids, Fuller sound etc. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
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A friend of mine wants to bring his bhk300 Monos and do a shootout against my 2301s. Lol oh damn. What if the 2301s got smoked by ps audio ?
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
i will tell you all, even though the 2301s are indeed a 10 year old design, it is the tubes that makes them sound as if they weren't an old outdated design. i am telling you, i sat here until 3am listening to them and they sounded great with my ref10. When my 200.8s arrive, we will see what they can do. Hell, i may have a pair of 900u monos by then as well and do a full shootout between 3 mono block companies. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I was told that the 2301 was never replaced because McIntosh claimed they couldn’t improve it.  
Will the 200.8s smoke the 2301s? Time will tell..  there’s one thing that we all need to take into account: it’s called system synergy and there’s a A HELL LOT OF IT between the ref10 and 2301s. I’m running a total of 38 tubes right now...
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
One day I will. For now, the upcoming battle will be 2301s vs pass 200.8. Will solid state best tubes ? We shall see...
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Thanks Riaa. I want to hear those m400s for sure but they gotta hit my door at the right price. All I can do is wait until one of my connections have a pair or something shows up. 
For now, I will try the 2301s and the 200.8s. I was told by a credible source of mine that he tried the m400s and ref10 and it was the best he’s ever heard. I trust his ears very much so. He also has a thing for the 2301s though. I will say the 2301 is a special amp. No question about it. As a matter of fact, I can say with confidence that 10 years from now it will still be a desirable amp. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I just turned on everything again and man From a dead cold start things sound freaking incredible. The air around the instruments is insane. 38 total tubes make a huge difference. The music sounds so pleasant, so real, so crisp, so amazing in many ways and the magico just display everything. If I didn’t have the 200.8s coming, I would be ok to pull the ebrake right now and enjoy this for a few months. I almost don’t want to go back to solid state but as many of you know by now, I enjoy this journey. Maybe I will keep the 2301s as my second set of amps so I can change the flavor of my music from time to time. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I will hold off on 160m. I want to figure out how much current the 2301s draw while idling. The 200.8 draw 750 watts just in idle. Anyone know ? 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I own the p20 and I don’t think I could tell how much power they draw by plugging them into it ? 
We shall see what will happen... my gut says it’s the synergy what I’m enjoying now. It’s not the ref10 and it’s not the 2301. It’s everything as a whole. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
well guys, i decided to buy a pair of Revel Salon 2 and try again with this speaker. i figure now i have massive horsepower and all the front end needed for these so why the hell not try them. 

first impressions: NO BASS. very detailed, no oomph and they do not have the attack the monitor audio platinum 500s have in my room. I suspect the revel salon 2s are picky with rooms. They need to be in the right room with the right walls in order to blow you away. My room is far from that, but the platinum 500s are killers. They don't give a damn how big or wide or tall your room is. They will force 120 decibels in any space. 
I will continue to play with the revels and move them around, but right now i don't hear any difference by playing with the rear knobs. i have them about 4 feet off the back wall and 3 feet from the side walls. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Revels have knobs but you gotta be an alien to hear much of a difference by playing with those knobs. I can’t tell a bit of of difference. Anyhow, the revels are supposed to be awesome. They are a good speaker but the monitor platinum 500s expose the revels age and design. The platinums can overload the room if you’re not careful but they are so easy to place. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
i love panels and it has been something i have praised here many times. however, the platinum 500s are extremely close in sound, but they have the dynamics panels lack. No matter how good a panel is, they dont have the huge dynamic swing of woofers and tweeters. If i ever go back to panels, it will be the neoliths. Last night i had a chance to listen to the salon 2s again and yes they actually presented a good soundstage with smoothness. however, i changed preamps back and forth and i really couldnt tell a big difference in sound. The pl500s WILL show you the difference very easily. I still dont know why people are not jumping on the pl500s listed on here. i can place a bet that there is NO BETTER speaker listed on audiogon right now under 20k that can beat those.
i actually had 2 friends come over last night and i let them listen to the salons/boulder/arc preamp combo for about 1 hour. they all said wow they sound amazing. I went ahead and connected the pl500s and did the same thing and their jaw hit the floor in the first 10 seconds using the same material and same electronics. Their words were "holy sh&t" they sound huge. They also all agreed that they wouldn’t have considered the pl500s if they had not heard them against the salon 2s. It is the same logic i have been saying here for many years which is many times it takes for you to have BOTH systems or set ups and play with BOTH at the same time in order to realize how good one is over the other.
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
One last thing i did want to mention is that the platinum 500s are set up so perfectly that the tweeter sits almost at ear level when you sit down. They can fill the room in pretty much any direction and nobody in the room will be without a big soundstage. Salon 2s are excellent speaker FOR THE MONEY that they are worth today though. i wont lie. The salon 2s are a good buy because they have depreciated over their 12 year run. Revel MUST MUST begin to release a new model soon or they will be falling behind and they need to stop making the salons so damn difficult to drive. Even my boulder amp has to push a bit of power to get them going. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Hi Jobloain--- i have experience with theta digital's 7 channel power amp. It was great, but to be quite sincere, i found the bel canto more of a game changer in terms of class d. I really feel bel canto is hard to beat for the money. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
As far as how it sounds for home theater, i will be very honest here and say that IF YOU ARE MORE HOME THEATER than music, do yourself a favor and buy class d amps. They simply do the job really well with plenty of power and dynamics and for very little money with no heat. The only thing that i warn you all about is that class d technology changes rapidly and the resale value really gets hurt. For example, if you were to buy a pass labs amp for your home theater instead of a class d amp, you have to accommodate for its size, heat production, weight, etc. It can be painful, but when it is time to part ways with it, you will certainly get at least half of the money you invested in pass labs (with a few exceptions of course), but with class d things are different. You buy a class d amp today and in 6 months there is a new class d module and now your amps lose terrible value. Buying class d amps is no different than buying a computer. Go to best buy today and buy a 3,000 dollar machine and then go back to best buy in 6 months and now your 3,000 laptop is worth much less because there is a better computer than yours that costs even less. 
Again, class d changes too rapidly and that is why i choose to stick with solid state and tube amps. Those technologies really don't change much so there will always be a buyer for solid state and tube amps. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Update on my GS150: i have been listening to this amp for about 2 hours today and i can't put my finger on it, but i find it somewhat "bright" sounding. It almost makes you not able to crank up the music because of the brightness. That said, if listening a low volumes is something that someone would do all the time then this amp would reward you. However, certain songs seem to be a little too sparkly and some other songs sound fine. For example, i played some reggae to gauge the bass and low end punch and it sounded pretty good. Nothing really sounded bright, but when i play some Lynyrd Skynyrd, some songs can sound a bit shouty and not too pleasant. Again, these are my initial impressions so maybe things change with time. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
pass labs 350.8 has now been sold to one of you who follows my thread. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
GS150 update: i can’t believe how loud this amp will play. I can't even dare to crank it up as loud as it will go because it is already too loud. To those of you who think 150 watts isn’t enough, you may want to rethink that. I can’t even go past 30 on the volume on my audio research reference 6 preamp because it is scary loud.
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Sources are the Rerence Gamut CD Player, Aurender N100H going into a Oppo 205 player. I also have a Sony HAP network player. i don't have a dedicated room, but i have a fairly large living room. I sit 13 feet away from my speakers and the are about 9 feet apart. 
That said, i just plugged the GS150 into the outlet directly. I also might need to perhaps begin to play with the toe in of my Cremonese to see if that helps a little with the highs. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
The most neutral amp I’ve owned was the boulder 2060. It just didn’t have any soul...
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Ria: if you can do 900u Monos then do it. It paid off for me. Lastly, you need a ref10 with it. 
So anyhow, I’ve had a couple of friends give their input about the 2301s vs 200.8s in my current set up. The 200.8s should arrive mid September or before. This is the longest I’ve wait for any amp. I’m typically a very desperate guy once I pay for an item which is why those of you who bought stuff from me usually get tracking info from me very quickly.  
Anyhow, everyone who I’ve asked for their input on the 200.8 vs 2301 has chosen the 2301s to be the ones to remain victorious. 
They say that although the 200.8 is a better design, etc and it will attempt to sound close to tubes, it won’t duplicate real tube sound. They said that yes to the naked eye/ears the 200.8 can sound like tubes when they are sitting by themselves but once you bring a real tube amp then the differences will be obvious. Also, the synergy that I find right now is crazy incredible. Some of the best I’ve had hands down. 
You want my preliminary feeling?? Well... I will say that yes the 200.8s will lose vs the 2301s. I expect the pass 200.8s to expose the “sluggishness” of the 2301 and lack of bottom end but the 2301s sheer musicality And synergy will be enough to shut the door on the 200.8. Will I be wrong? We shall see... 

ps: the gryphon diablo is now sitting on the sidelines being part of the bench while it waits to see the outcome. :) it has now taken a back seat. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
One thing I wanted to add is that the 2301 has musicality and sweetness that is absent from the 601,452,1.2kw etc. The 2301 is one special amp even if it’s a 10 year old design. My findings are with me comparing it to those amps that passed through my living room. 
In regards to the magico: this is WHY I chose to keep them. They easily let you hear what happened to the sound when you switch out components. 
If I were to try to compare audio research amps vs McIntosh amps hmmm. Ok what I can say and mind you this is from 2 different set ups. The gs150 had balls and good bass but if I compared it to the 2301s I would say that the 2301s are sweeter with more of a mellow sound that engages you. The gs150 had balls and power but I could also say that at times you could have mistaken it with a little bit of solid state sound. This is not the case with the 2301s. Nothing about the 2301s sounds like solid state. That said, I can’t comment on the 160m amps. I’ve heard from credible sources that they are the best amps to come out of ARC. I would definitely love to try them some day. 
If I were to say what audio research does best then it would preamps and Luxman would be amps. ive owned the 900u FOUR TIMES and maybe a 5th time if I decide to bring monos again. That’s perhaps the amp that made me realize how mid fi some brands are. It kills the pass labs 350.8 and anything below it. I can’t comment on the 200.8 yet but Just remember I was floored with the 200.5s. 
Ive never owned ayre but a couple of people who owned it told me that the mxr twenty Monos are smooth and detailed but they don’t have any dynamics. They can’t force bass out of the woofers. This is what’s held me back from owning those Monos. I like an amp that has full control of the speaker. 
Lastly, if you own a 900u amp and are thinking of selling it to buy something else, you better be sure of what you’re doing. I’ve had a hard time beating the 900u. The Rowland’s 925s were the only ones that did it. It’s very difficult to find a fault with the 900u. Often times when I sold
them and tried something else I realized I went backwards. 
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