@whitecamaross Could it be the Black system is so neutral, so colorless, that you are hearing deficiencies in the recordings via the mqa files. Although not sterile or harsh, as you say, just accurate, the engineering ( mic to close or too far from the performer, the mixing, the splicing / editing / overdubbing, improper gain somewhere in the mastering chain, etc. ), might not be perfect, and this might be what you are responding to. Maybe ? Or, it is so enjoyable, it relaxes you, and let's face it whitecamaross, it is hard for you to relax. No judgement, just an observation, and I could be wrong on both counts.. Always, MrD.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass. It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass. It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Showing 50 responses by mrdecibel
@whitecamaross If a system synergy, such as the black system, can allow you to really relax ( even for a short while ), or allow you to tap your toes ( both relaxing and toe tapping, depending on the recorded musical performance being played at the time ), that is when I feel you have reached audio nirvana. However, the point bill_k brought up is a real one, and even during our listening, our minds tell us " there is more to be had ". |
My only concern with the XA 25 will be when you want to turn it up. It might just be the best sounding amp from Nelson, working within it’s limitations. I, too, thought it was the XA 25, but not as sure as grey9hound was. I wasn’t sure the amp was powerful enough for your listening habits. It would certainly be for me, with my 104db Lascalas. I have been saving for one actually. I will buy yours 2nd hand, as I am calling 1st dibs. lol |
Quoted from Michael Fremer, on the Boulder 2150 monoblocks : The remaining variable is probably the biggest: the sound quality of the recordings played. With the right associated gear, the best recordings will be allowed to express themselves as well as or better than you’ve ever heard them. The worst ones won’t be able to hide in the shadows, because these amps cast none. Owners of 2150s must also be willing to accept the fact that some, or even many, of their favorite recordings don’t sound so great............................ ... There is a level of equipment ( designs ), that are so neutral and revealing, that since we are listening to recordings ( some better than others ), seem not to be pleasant to listen to. I have heard Boulder amplifiers ( not these 2150s ), and thought they were excellent ( and this was with B&W 801 series 3, not my favorite ). Enjoy ! MrD. |
Living in central Florida, I still have not heard the Tektons, and I would like to, after all that I have read. As far as their looks, Mr. Alexander has a background in pro loudspeaker design, and we all know what they look like. He is keeping the cost down by designing this way, but does make available any paint finish and color you would like, for an additional cost. My Lascalas are big boxes, and I love how they look ( love how they present music, too ). The use of pro drivers gives them efficiency, dynamics, and high power handling ability. I have never posted on the Tekton threads, but I wanted to point that out. As far as EQ, I modified my Rane, and although it is a bit cleaner than it was, it still does not come close to my Luminous unit, so back in the closet it goes, or, maybe I will sell it. A final thought. In terms of system price, my current system is less expensive than most I have owned in the past, and I am enjoying my current system more than any other. A step backward ? In price, maybe. In musical satisfaction, quite the opposite. Enjoy ! MrD. |
viber6, I do have a bit of studio and live sound experience ( way back before digital ), which is why my comments about pro audio. In fact, of some of the amplifiers I have held onto, I have a few pro Yamahas, which I will have forever. EQ : I do feel the Rane is as good as many line stages as I have heard, it is just that, I feel I do not need to boost or cut anything, as I am so much enjoying my system, and my recordings, the way things are. I am really enjoying the elimination of the gain stage. Yes, I did the mods myself. The circuit board, transformer, and complete chassis is now resonant free, and the eq has put on some pounds. Added some " special " feet " ( needed 5 of them ), and it might be the best sounding eq I have ever heard, and this is still with those mediocre input level controls. I am sure with a great pair of Alps in there, it could make all the difference. But I am still not interested, simply because of my satisfaction of enjoyment. I have been involved in vibration and resonance control most of my life. In fact, if you took the guts of an Adcom GFA 535 II, and put it in the chassis of a Krell KSA 50 ( of which I both own ), the Adcom amp, in it's new home, would blow you away, in a side by side comparison with a stock Adcom. Anyway, this is for another thread, and not WC's thread. Enjoy ! Enjoy ! MrD. |
viber6, in your last post, you said " because more circuitry is in the chain with opportunity for added distortion ". This is why I went passive. I certainly know what eq does, but, unlike you, I have no desire to change the way each and every recording I listen to. What a pain, and again, not necessary. If I recall, Klark Teknik had / has a very good eq that had several memory positions ( consumer gear such as Sansui, Kenwood and others as well ). Speaker / room interaction would be the only reason I would use eq at this point. Back in the day, with my short lived band, we used eq for recording, and my studio time, the same. I am happy with all of the eq on my recordings. If I were to ridicule an aspect of some recordings, it would be to much compression. I know an eq could help with that as well, but, different strokes. My Rane, as I indicated in an earlier post, and, we discussed, is the ME60, not the ME60S.....WC, back to you ! Enjoy ! MrD. |
I have been pretty consistent with my guesses of WC’s new components prior, but this time, I am a bit puzzled. I am guessing he is not getting the Neoliths at this juncture. As far as amps, " they are being built as we speak ", so that could mean quite many. How good of a deal can WC get on a brand new pair of amplifiers if they are being built ? If he could get them near cost ( accommodation price ), well this is a game changer, but usually, in this case, based on my experience, a manufacturer says you cannot sell them for a specific amount of time ( a year or two ). WC will only get something that is re sellable for at least a break even point. This is a bigger question than the speakers for me. I might be wrong about the Neoliths, because he has wanted them for so long, and I have been wrong before. Considering his lull here for a time now, he sure has his thread back. I can’t wait. Enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, wow, a 2 year old. I feel like I am old enough to be your dad ( I am sure I am ). Anyway, my doctor son grew up in a household with music always playing, and a constant plethora of audio equipment coming and going. To this day, he has zero interest in high end audio for his home, but makes a big deal over it when he visits me and listens here, as well as his factory sound system in his Benz. My sister, too. She is into music as much as I am, as my dad got us both hooked at a very early age. She listens in her car, on her phone, on her tabletop Bose unit, and is very happy. On another thread here, we spoke about the nuances in recordings a higher end system brings forth to our ears, creating a more emotional connection to the music. With this greater intelligibility of the recorded information, it is realized why some of us have the systems we do. WC, it is all about the music. Keep on truck’in. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Viber6, I never stated the Luminous is better than every preamp, as my preamps were only in the 6K and under range ( not that this means anything ), although I have heard higher priced units. Never heard the particular ARC preamp WC owns. I am extremely pleased with my Luminous unit, and cannot imagine an additional line stage being better, for me, and my system. A poster commented on my Dac, saying I am not getting all of the information on the recordings, which I disagree. My system just works well with passive. I have been at this long enough to know, why folks like tubes, do not like horns, prefer vinyl, etc. I still believe WC will not be happy with his new equipment, long term. He will know there is better out there, and he is on a mission. I have heard the AG trio on many occasions, and thought many times they were not at all coherent. Other times, they were amazing. There are some great horn hybrids I have listened to, but still prefer my Lascalas. Considering my Lascalas can fill an auditorium, eliminated all of their nasties, and supplementing the last octave with a pair of subs, I could not be happier. Enjoy ! MrD. |
I would like to make a few observations about some posters here. 1st, there are a lot of know-it-alls ( I consider myself one as well ). 2nd, there are a few that seem to take delight in boasting the fact that they " can buy anything they want ", meaning, they have lots of money. This does not bother me. 3rd, many people here are acting like children, and this has no place on WC’s thread. Too many children on too many threads. Gentlemen, and I am using the term loosely, keep it in your pants. 4th, to RIAA, WC DOES want to buy the best equipment, at the best price, as he has stated over and over again. Why, because he changes equipment often, and does not want to lose money on anything he buys, when it is time to resell. That has been his goal. In fact, he has stated many times, products he passed up, because the " deal " ( price ) was not right. 5th, to viber6, I could not live with the Rane eq in my system, even after my mods. My passive is just so much cleaner, and this was using the eq with everything flat. 6th, and this is for you WC. You have said so many times, that you can easily live with this, and / or that ( an example is just above, as saying you can easily live with the Gryphon, but there is a Momentum sitting right beside it ). I no longer take many things you say seriously, because, if you WERE able to live with the Gryphon, there would not be a Momentum sitting next to it. Admit it, you are an equipment junkie ( and btw, you are not alone ). I await the day you have a system that you can live with, for a long time, and finally, be drawn into the music, without thinking " what is next that I can improve upon ". Been there.... Please, I am just calling it as I see it. Still my favorite thread. With all my love ! Enjoy !, MrD. |
A few points. Years ago, when I purchased my Rane ME60 ( 2nd version without the ground lift switch on rear ), it was recommended to me based on an amp manufacturer, stating the "constant Q", developed by Rane, was the most versatile, and best sounding eq, at that time, for a high end home audio system. I was never an eq guy at home, but wanted it for room eq. I enjoyed it, initially, but boxed it up, because I had gotten my speaker / room situation to a point where I was happy. I moved a few times, took it with me, but only until reading viber6's use, and praise, did I decide to try it, again. I needed to get rid of the chassis nasties, and it is significantly a better unit now. Viber6 is using it, in place of a line stage, which I tried as well. Although I no longer have my two " high end " preamps, which I sold after going passive, I find the eq to be quite clean and transparent, although, still not close to my passive unit. It is in a 2nd system, and it has bettered a fairly nice, modified pre that I have enjoyed for many years. I just do not listen to my 2nd, or 3rd systems. That is the story on the eq ( for dguitarnut ). Enjoy ! MrD. |
Now on to WC. Based only my readings of both the Momentum and Gryphon integrates, and understanding what has been written about each ( never heard either ), it was easy for me to make the statement earlier, that I did not think the Grython would better the Dag in any way, shape or form. It turns out to be the case, as WC has stated ( and yes, the bass will be the same, as Dan knows how to do bass ). Next, WC is getting family staying with him, starting this weekend, for about a month, so, this might hinder his listening a bit, so, I anticipate a longer wait for a full review on the Monoliths. But he will know shortly, if it is the best he has had, within a short amount of time. I will continue this at a later time, as my gf wants to go look at puppies ( we have 3 cats ), and her birthday is coming up. I will never buy a purebred for big bucks, as I believe in adoption. Enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, Congrats. One of the points I made in my last post, was that you are an audio equipment junkie. Stating you ordered the black finish so it would be easier to sell, leads me to believe, you will never stop. You are already thinking of moving them, without receiving them yet. I am not trying to sound negative. I sold equipment, and advised and consulted with clients, for so many years, that I feel I know the trends in people. I am not judging you, as you are on a mission, and again, you are not alone.. My prediction with the Monoliths ( and keep in mind, I heard them only one time, briefly, in a showroom, and have owned a few pair of ML, with familiarity with many models ), that these will blow you away, at first, and maybe for a while, but will ultimately not be the speaker for you. Electrostatics do not provide that " fullness and body " that you like ( and I am sure some people will disagree with me ). But again, enjoy your journey. What are your thoughts of the two integrated amps ? When you decide to have an audio garage sale, I will gladly drive from central Florida to attend, with checkbook in hand. ( never know ). Again, Enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, it could take many hours to dial in the Monoliths. I would not jump to conclusions yet on needing more power ( although I never doubt your passion or needing for higher power ). They also need time to break in, a topic that you and I seem to differ. Give it time, and play with positioning. I, myself, have other thoughts as to other things that might be missing, but will not discuss it at this time. Enjoy ! MrD. |
New mono blocks are coming, so wc shall see. I think the room is too small to allow what the Neos are capable of. Might be improved by the greater power, but not enough to allow them to open up and breath. I wanted to say this before wc ordered them, but, he was on a mission. However, I always stated the room, the room, the room. Enjoy ! MrD. |
I owned the original ML CLS when they were introduced, paired with a pair of Janis W3 ( the 12 inchers ), as I had a pair of model 1's ( 15s ), but were too " slow " to keep up with the CLS. Enjoyed their attributes, of which there were many, but was not my cup of tea, as I liked music louder than the CLS were capable of playing ( with any amp ). I also built a better pair of stands for the panels, to prevent them from " rocking ". The Janis had no problem. viber6, offering to play violin in the men's bathroom for someone, is, well, I do not know about that. P.S. I am ready to part with my eq. LOL ...Enjoy MrD. |
A few more thoughts...…..Music is all about dynamics, even chamber music. It is ok if it is not your 1st priority, as viber6 admits with his own stats. I do not need to hear the Neoliths, as the esl membrane is what it is, and can only give a certain amount of " meat on the bones " that horns and other types of speakers give you. Detail, smoothness, delicacy, spatiality,and other similar attributes are received from listening to stats. Any stats. But huge dynamics, no way. I feel WC will find this out sooner than later, with whatever amps he uses. I also feel, that ime, speakers such as the Neos, well any good set of speakers, deserves a room where the entire front wall ( behind the speakers ) should be equal from left to center to right ( more critical with panels ), and the room should be somewhat larger than what wc has now. Believe it, or not, but for what I am looking for in a system, I would not trade my upgraded, tweaked and modified Lascalas for a pair of Neoliths, even as an equal trade. I would sell the Neos and go back to horns ( maybe a pair of JBL 67000s, the new PBN horns, or the Volti Vittoras ). I would not have the room for a pair of the AG Trio XDs ( which would be my ultimate choice ). Sorry wc, if I spoke out of line, but I feel you are still an amateur at this, as after all of this time and exposure to some great equipment, you still are somewhat clueless as to what YOU want. I am actually getting a bit bored with this thread. WC, you need your dedicated listening room, and you need horns. Thats it for now. Enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, a lime every day since five; was that with a tequila shot ? lol. My Mac preamps ( I have had a few ) with the 5 tone controls, would never compare to the flexibility of a Rane ( or any other 1/3 octave unit ). I am sure the Loki is nice, but depends on what you want. I listened yesterday to the best of Deep Purple ( cd reissue ). Honestly, I could not believe the Neos sounding better than my system, with whatever amp was used ( simply based on What I Want ). I cranked it. I believe the Neo might be the most dynamic ELS out there, but they are still an ELS. Give me a pair of JBL DD 67000. Anyone ? Please, do not get me wrong, as I believe there is no best for everybody. I am glad for this thread, for wc's journey, and for the comradery shown here ( for the most part ). Enjoy your Thanksgiving everyone ! MrD. |
I feel that I will no longer post on WC's thread, because I do not want to add anything that appears " negative ". I have followed this thread from day 1, but started to participate relatively recently. As an experienced audio professional who spent many years putting together systems for many wealthy people ( some just for the prestige, admittedly ), I do believe I know what WC wants. It is not the Neos, but, this journey needs to be lived and experienced by him. I stated it in my last post. So, unless I am asked to join in, I'm out. I will, however, continue reading. I will allow anyone to private message me through A;gon email. Many thanks, Enjoy ! MrD. |
@gtaphile...viber6 owns the Rane, in place of a high quality line stage preamp, and his ears, system, experience and welcomed commentary here by wc and others, have no problem with it. I too have one, and it was viber that created my curiosity to pull it out of the closet and give it another go. Was not bad as a line stage. I modified mine to eliminate all of the chassis and circuit board resonances typical with pro eqs, and to me, made a huge improvement in sq over stock. I have had many eqs in my day, and the Rane is special, imo ( in use only as an eq ). BTW, Rane is the company that developed the " Interpolating Constant - Q filters ".Turns out, in my main system, I still do not need an eq, and prefer my Luminous Audio passive unit, but unless you tried it as a line stage, you have no right to request the " block the word Rane " from here. As I said, no one else has the problem you do. Besides, this thread has a lot of talk about equalization as of late. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Say what you want, because I can guarantee you, dguitarnut, that you never used the Rane ME60 ( or a pair of ME30s ) as a line stage, in place of a 5K line stage preamp. And if you did, you certainly would not be making the comments you are making. As far as Tekton, I never heard the DIs or above, but am aware that there are many individuals who have changed from much more expensive speakers to Tekton, stating their greater listening enjoyment. And, those that upgrade, stay with Tekton. Once again, opinion, which I appreciate, and makes these threads interesting. Enjoy ! MrD. |
IME, home eqs ( such as a Luxman you mentioned previously ) might measure better than the Rane, but they have inferior circuit board layout, inferior components, many non discreet components ( chips ), and a much smaller power supply. Admittedly, the units are very resonant tin cans ( as most all pro eqs ), but I took care of that. Enjoy ! MrD. |
There is obviously anger towards viber6 ( and probably me ), for recommending the Rane eq. Currently, I count 22 Rane ME60 eqs being sold on eBay, average price about $200. Maybe I should spend more time talking about my Luminous Audio Axiom, with Walker Mod, and suggest to everybody to spend $1200. on one. Obviously, not many have used the Rane in place of a line stage. That is the point of it's being mentioned by viber6. Get over it guys. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Hope everyone enjoyed their TG. viber6, a few things......the Rane is a 30 band eq, not 32 band, has never been a 32 band eq. Damping and reducing the resonance of the Rane ( which you and dguitarnut are having fun with ), has substantially improved the sq characteristics ( you are definitely blind to it ). Still, far from my Luminous. Not close. As far as my " not requiring eq " ( although hard for you to believe ), I am fine with all of my recordings as they are ( which is why I wanted the Luminous, to hear more of what was on the recordings ). My speaker / room / listening seat situation, are all beyond satisfactory to me. No tone control or eq needed, or wanted. BTW, The ME60 had 3 production runs ( mine is the 2nd ), and then the ME60S, which is now also discontinued ( refer to Rane ME60 - Ken Rockwell ). So, I would like to be removed from the Rane as a topic, as I do not feel it belongs in the company of the equipment being used by wc ( I feel my Luminous unit does ). Lastly, I know you feel WC has caught up, and surpassed, many of us in experience. I have to disagree. Yes, I never owned 80 K speakers, never owned 60 k monoblocks, never owned 3 k power cords, but am familiar with much of it. And as I have stated recently, more power to him and his journey. But I am a happy and content listener, and he has yet to be. So as I see it, he has not reached that level of experience. Thank you all, and enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, do you feel you need a high frequency boost ?, as viber suggested, especially after your last " positioning ". All of the MLs I have heard ( many models, many times ) never seemed to be lacking in the HF area ( after proper set up, system match and optimum seated position ( distance and centered ). I find it odd that an 80K set would not be able to provide it ( given the proper amplification and everything else preceding them ). Maybe the better amps will make the difference. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Viber, you have stated that you use the eq with very subtle adjustments, maybe a db or 2 here and there. What if you were to try a unit such as the Luminous ( which I find cleaner and more detailed than transformer based passives ), or a LightSpeedAttenuator ( single in, single out ), a reason I chose the Luminous ( there is also Tortuga ). Just like you are surprised by me not wanting or needing eq, I am as surprised with you. You are missing details and information, and I do mean significant. Your thoughts ? Enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, other than easier on amplifiers ( both impedance and sensitivity ), and easier to place in my room, I feel the level of transparency I am experiencing is incredible. I easily hear changes when I swap out a fuse in a component ( a big controversy here on other threads ) Some systems I listen to that is not so easy. I hear plenty of detail from my system. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Viber, I will tell you the amp I am using in a moment ( although I have not been shy about in on other threads ). I gave up on tubes a long time ago, which was a shame, because with horns, there seems to be a " magic ". Factors such as mushy bass ( ill defined and slow ), microphonics, constant biasing, tube rolling ( getting and matching good quality tubes ), noise, long warm up times, and reliability issues were a big play in my decision. Keep in mind ( as this was pointed out to me by Roger Modjeski on his fabulous thread here RamTubes, asking an engineer questions ), I likely did not have the correct amps. From the very beginning, I jumped on board with solid state. Mcintosh, Ampzilla, Son and Grandson, Marantz 15, Citation 16 ( the A version, and even the little model 12 ), Dyna 416, Robertson, Bedini, PL, SAE, Sumo, and not to mention the Japanese units. Yamaha, Luxman, Kenwood LO7s, need I continue. I was a junkie, for sure. Being in the business, I was able to get my hands on absolutely anything. And I did. My Threshold Stasis 2, was at the time, a revelation, as was my Krell KSA 50 ( my favorite ).....It was not until I got my Krell KSA 50, that I believed SS was the real deal. Moving along to today, most of that equipment is gone, as I no longer was in the " collection " business. March of ’17 ( I am retired in Fl. at this point ), I decided, for giggles, to purchase the Nuforce STA 200, being sold for the price of $499., with free shipping, and a 30 day return. Amp was not satisfactory with my preamp collection ( again many, a few in the 5-6 K range ).Too much gain. Hum, hiss, and very little attenuation control on the volume. But, it sounded AWESOME. This amp, through my current pr. of Lascalas ( I have been through a number of pair), had attributes, positive mind you, of every other amplifier I have ever owned, and not a single negative, except for the too much gain issue. Early this year I tried passive, and have found my Nirvana, with the Luminous. There are many amp manufacturers whose products have been through my doors not mentioned here, because honestly, it no longer matters. Speakers, do not get me started. I had them all ( while always a pair of Lascala ). You did ask what amp I am using, right ? WC is on a larger " budget " scale than my own, but in my industry, I have heard much near what he is buying. To me, no biggie. There is only so much info on a recording. My weakness in likely my Dac ( heavily modified Adcom GDA 700 ), but, really does the job for me. Gave up my Lps and tt set up recently in ’15 as it was a pita for me to get a record to spin. I was anal with the cleaning, clamping, all else....My vinyl sounded superior to me than digital, but I adjusted. Enough for now. I am thinking of writing a book on my vast audio experiences, and believe me, there have been many. I have known many big and influential people in the industry, many have passed, some still around, and, other than better parts, not too excited about some of the new stuff. I apologize to you WC, as I did not mean to use your thread for my read. Your mission is still quite enjoyable to me, but as I’ve said, I have found a sound that suits me, my music, and my listening habits. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Viber, with a violin under your chin much of your life, you obviously are " used to " certain characteristics of sound many listeners do not have experience with. That can be true with the fact of just being " on the stage " or " in the pit ", again not experienced by many. I really do not see why you PUSH the eq so much. Granted, it works for you, but in reality, it is a band aid to better sound. I appreciate the fact that to your ears only 1 violin recording needs no eq, which I find very sad, but...….Admittedly, not every recording I own is wonderful. However, they are balanced. I do not wish to change it. On the same cd ( as an example my recent listen to the Rolling Stones " Sticky Fingers ", a few songs are a bit harsh, lean, bright, etc. But on others, smoother, rounder, warmer, etc. But what I listen for, is the ability of all the RS members playing together, tightly, if you know what I mean. And this is due to the studio folks, taking the individual tracks and putting them all together. I have no need or desire to change a thing, as I easily accept the recording for what it is. The Luminous unit has made this SO MUCH CLEARER for me to hear more into the recording. Tape hiss is more abundant, when there, being to close to the mike is there. Not to mention the attack and decay of each and every movement of the musicians, and their instruments. The bass line of " Can’t You Hear Me Knock'in ", was before, a little out of place with the mix ( my subs were not quite jelling with the Lascala’s ), not quite. The elimination of any gain stage has made it tight, uniform, coherent, fast, immediate, you get my point. I though my system was excellent before. Now, unbelievable. And, as I said, my speaker / room / listening seat, although not perfect, reveals to me to hear every and all of the most minute little details in my vast library, in an unadulterated, uncolored, and honest way. WC is not ready for eq or tone controls, as he is still trying to find the best combination for his Neos, even if they have a HF roll off. Leave him alone about the EQ, at least for now, that is my professional recommendation. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Although I have not heard the AR REF 10 ( I have listened to the Plinius 103, when it was introduced to the market ( unfortunately not in my system, but still sounded nice ) the Rane will likely sound " dirtier " than the REF 10, in flat mode. Why for heavens sake would you want this piece of equipment in the chain preceding 80 K Neos. The Rane is dirtier than my Luminous. Tone for detail ? You do not buy Neos for tone. You buy them for detail. A completely " open window " experience. The tone will come from the recordings. Viper, remember, you are a different type of listener than most, and that is what you are not understanding. You are listening to older recordings, recordings you say " need eq ". WC does not. Let him " hear " and experience what the Plinius is like, not to change it into something it is not. He is already familiar with the REF 10, but somehow hears things, differently, with each amp change ( in other words, it is a clear window ). I value you and appreciate you, but I totally disagree with you, and this is how it will be. Enjoy ! MrD. |
viber, reading your response, it is all in defense of the fact that I stated the Rane ( remember I have one, is dirtier ). Yes, ime, it is the equivalent of the line stage of a Classe 6, based on my memory, but with a little less warmth of the 6. You just feel " what viber wants, everybody should want ". Difference between you and me. You want people to duplicate you and your ideas, because let’s face, you have a god complex. Shall we take a poll ? You are forgetting the individuality of this hobby. You are still wrong, completely. Can we be done with this. BTW, I never used the words " cheap electronics ". I specifically pointed to the Rane eq. We both know how bad the input gain controls are on the Rane. Do you think WC would not hear that, and that is a reason the Rane is dirty, as we have discussed ?. If you want to continue your argument, come on over to the fuse thread. Enjoy ! MrD. |