Lalitk: i mentioned that some reviews call the oppo 205 or even the 105 a "reference cd player or preamp". I was like really? It is a great unit considering the price, but i am trying to make some people understand that they don't need to bite the bs magazines write.
corvette: i have not owned emotiva monos, but i suspect they're great amps for the money. i have emotiva amps now and i had to send one in for something minor and emotiva was amazing to deal with. They really try to make things right with customers.
I also wanted to share that the xa200.5s have officially shipped to me along with the matching xp30 preamp. They are scheduled to arrive on Wednesday. I plan to pull them out the same day and turn them on to be sure they are working 100% and then they will sit there for about 2 days until Friday night when the first shoot out begins. |
Whitecamaross,did you ever have a pair of Emo xpa-1 monos?Just wondering your input on these.Thanks!
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I am little late to the party, but how exactly comparing a $1200 Oppo to a McIntosh costing 5x more is a 'real' and fair comparison?
I am with @ricred1 on this. Oppo never touted itself to be a 'reference' redbook player. IMO, it's a reference 4K UHD player with a very good CD/SACD and DAC capabilities. In this very category, 205 has no 'real' competition.
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I'm presently looking for something comparable,any recommendations. Besides the AMR, I would recommend Ayre, Cary, and though not heard, I don't doubt the Mytek Manhattan and Chord Dave are up there at the top. as far as using a Dac as a preamp, I'm not so sure. That's not what I said-please re-read what I DID say. As I've said previously, I too own a Ref 6. For a reason. |
Yes I totally agree there's no replacement for a good preamp.
I just use my DS as a dac only.
Kenny. |
No worries Kenny.
as far as using a Dac as a preamp, I'm not so sure. I've tried the direct stream and it was very good but nowhere near close to my audio research reference 6. I'm still a firm believer that there's no replacement for a real preamp. |
fsonicsmith,
Very good advice on every aspect.
I use a Direct stream which I do love but I'm presently looking for something comparable,any recommendations.
Sorry whitecamaross I didn't mean to hijack your thread.
Kenny. |
Are you running the GamuT as a cdp or are you using the digital out into the Oppo or some other dac? I realize that you've had many other amps in the same system but something has to account for the perceived brightness other than the GS150. I am sorry to sound critical, but I think you could do much better in terms of your digital front ends though I certainly think the N100H is great- just the rest.... I tried to warn you of this earlier in this thread. Don't shoot the messenger but it is apparent you rely far too much on reviews. Reviews are utter bird-cage liner other than from a very select few reviewers. You need a WW Platinum Starlight 7 USB with your Aurender-there is NO substitute-and you need a top notch DAC of which there are any number-you can trust those reviewed by John Atkinson. A tip on DAC's-pick one that has a robust analog output stage-those that have beefy linear power supplies and can be used as excellent preamps. You don't really want to use it as a preamp, but if it has excellent preamp functionality than it is bound to have an excellent analogue output stage. I've mentioned my AMR DP777 but there are many others. |
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whiteCamaross,
I submit "we" must be careful stating things as absolutes. We hear things based on our system(all of the components), room, and preferences. You've recommended components that I've heard in my system and I have a completely different opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right and your wrong. I don't own the Oppo 205 or McIntosh, but I'm sure there is someone out there that may prefer the Oppo 205.
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If you like the Mc SACD player, you should try the Esoteric K-01X. |
Mac CD Players are hardly high end. OPPO 105 (not 205) is the best all around multi format player in its price range. HDCD compatibility is not on the 205 and is essential for many Classic Rock Titles released 15 years ago in that format. An Audio Research 9 CD or KRELL Cypher would smoke the Mac....and a High End Esoteric would obliterate it. Surprised the OP didnt do his homework on CD players before purchasing a Mediocre Mac deck. Even a OLDER PS Audio transport would have been a better choice. |
+1 on the oppo.
A guy must have a good sounding digital front end before doing any serious amp comparisons.JMHO.
Kenny.
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Hi @whiteCamaross, I am not surprised.... May I add that if you tried a higher end Esoteric single box player such as the current K1, or the older K-01X, or the even older K-01, you are likely to discover that they outperform both Oppo and Mac. I had the original K-01 in my system a few years ago, and it was outlandishly good.
G. |
Hi guys,
i picked up a Mcintosh mcd550 sacd player today and i was doing a real A/B comparison between the mcd550 and my oppo 205. I will tell you one thing, it was ridiculous how mediocre the oppo 205 is as a cd player. I know it is a different price point, etc, BUT WHY do you hear that it is supposed to be so amazing and besting other reference pieces? i just HATE the hype that magazines give these things because the reality is that it is all a bunch of BS. There were a couple of reviews on the oppo 105 and how great it was and that it was being used a reference cd player by some, etc ,etc. This couldn’t be further than the truth. I am here doing REAL A/B comparisons with both. i have the SAME CD with the SAME SONG playing on both and connected my reference 6 preamp. Both are exactly at the same db level and i just switch inputs back and forth and it is crazy to hear how much better the mcintosh is. I am already planning a full night worth of cd music tonight.
The reason why i share is? well i just want EVERYONE to know that NO AN OPPO BLURAY IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR A REFERENCE CD PLAYER. Don’t make that mental mistake that by spending 1200 dollars you have a cd player that is better than other true stand alone reference cd players.
The oppo 205 is a great bluray player and that is where it ends. |
Merrill Veritas is an excellent mono amp in all respects. Here is my take on Veritas:
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/merrill_audio.htm I heard Mola Mola Kaluga monos at RMAF... Also wonderful music makers, although the pair I heard, having had only a couple hundred hours of break-in, still exhibited minute traces of treble intermodulation, which is typically absent from amps based on NC1200 once they are fully mature.
Guido |
kw6,
That Devialet 440 was just too lean in the mids for my taste,but some folks really like them though.
I'm gonna speculate though within the next 10yrs maybe less class d is gonna turn the amp industry upside down.I just haven't found one yet that is my cup of tea.
Kenny.
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whitecamaross,
"Remember, pass labs class a is "supposed " to sound like tubes without tubes so I will be really testing that claim in about a week when I have an all class a vs tubes shoot out."
I think this will be a great shootout and I'm sure you will sort this out,
but IMHO a few of the First Watts give the most tube characteristics of any SS amps that I've heard but Offcourse you have to match with compatible speakers.
I've enjoyed this thread from the beginning and wish you the best of luck,
Kenny.
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Hi guys,
so after doing a bit of research and deliberation as to what my next move will be, I decided to no pursue the belcanto black system at this time. I decided to give another pass Labs a shot with my sonus fabers. As you know, I really like pass Labs but felt the x350.8 was not the right match for my speakers so I decided to pursue pure class a power this time around and purchased a pair of pass labs xa200.5 monos along with the matching pass labs preamp. As many of you know, this is supposed to be one amazing pair of monos with tons of power and class a power on tap. Having owned the xs150s, im clear as to what the pass labs xs sound like so it will be very interesting to try the xa200.5s which have even more class a than the xs150s. Yes, pass labs is coming back again so I’m really looking forward to seeing how a full pass Labs set up is going to do against the audio research. Remember, pass labs class a is "supposed " to sound like tubes without tubes so I will be really testing that claim in about a week when I have an all class a vs tubes shoot out. Stay tuned!
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I can't wait to hear back from Whitecamaross comparing the Be Canto to AR!
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Thanks for sharing the Devialet experience Kenny! |
whitecamaross,
The only advice or opinion I have to give you is,I and many others would like to read a honest straight up review on the black system and I believe you would be the perfect guy to do so.
You said you have heard the black intergrated and it gave you the best bass ever how would the separates compare overall.I'm sure they will have killer bass as well but what about the mids and highs.
I have heard a Devialet 440 paired with magico q3 speakers with a very high end analog setup and I will tell you I wasn't impressed at all.
I've read lots of good info on the M925's but I have never heard them,but I know Guido really loves his from reading several of his posts,they might be worth a shot.
I have full confidence in you that you will figure it out for sure.
Kenny.
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thanks Guido. I will keep that in the back of my mind. |
I have owned and loved the Rowland M925 monos for severl years.... Incredible authority, and the amps with the most organic and complex frequency spectrum from deep bass to high treble that I have ever listened to. If you have the patience to break them in fully -- 1K to 1.5K hours -- they will reward you with amazing music without any compromise that I know of.
These are power houses... They generate 430W per side over 8 ohms, doubling into 4 Ohms, with a peak current of about 45A per side. A Power Factor Corrected rectifier in each mono feeds a 2500W multi-regulated DC supply.
I have logged my usage/break-in observations about M925 on Audiogon at:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experiencing-rowland-m925-4-chassis-reference-amps
Further information on M925 is found in the Rowland knowledge base at:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/categories.php?categoryid=212
Feel free to ask me specific questions about these amps.
Saluti, Guido
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Keep the REF 6 and get the Rowland 925s. I bet they would sound wonderful with the REF 6. Of course you could also try the REF 250SE, which to me so far, are the best amps I have heard. enjoy |
Honestly, I'd try the JR 925's instead of the Black. Or, try both - one at a time :-) I'm sure the belcanto black would have tremendous bass. What I would worry about - is the bass dry, how are the highs - are they too tight - not providing enough air, decay, extension, etc?? Trying it out would be the way to find out for sure, but those would be my concerns going into it.
Dave
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One additional curve ball to all of you, I also have access to a pair of jeff rowland 925 monos... What is the feeling about these when compared to audio research? vs belcanto black? |
i have been trying to hear one of those, but unfortunately they are scarce and not show up often.
For now, I am going back and forth between my audio research gear and the belcanto system. |
Whitecamaross, I don’t have any experience with black system, but please if you have a chance get your hands on Plinius SA-REF. I am very curious what are you going to hear with it and ref 6 pre-amp and SF speakers. |
fsonicsmith: i appreciate your feedback an reasoning. You are correct, i did state that class d is the fastest to depreciate followed by tubed gear. That said, although we all know the black system is 50k, my cost would be far less than that. I would be buying "just right" if i were to make this move.
I had thought about the black system many months ago and did not pursue it, but i did have the chance to bring home the black integrated and i thought it was incredible and THE BEST BASS I HAVE EVER HEARD IN MY LIFE BY FAR!!.
One thing we all need to remember about tubed gear; The value with tube gear is less and less due to the fact that many people try to negotiate you on the price based on the hours you have on the tubes. This creates a hard position for most people because buyers will always pull out the " oh i gotta buy tubes for all this pretty soon which will cost me x amount of dollars etc" so then you have to begin to adjust your price accordingly. In short, tubes and class d gear do not have the same "appeal" for many reasons:
1. tubes have a cost of ownership associated with it
2. Class d technology changes all the time
David: Interesting feedback as well. That said, you are also only giving your input based on what you have heard which i totally understand. As i mentioned above, i heard the black bel canto integrated and it was incredible and my connection said the black system will stump all over the integrated and that it is a whole new animal.
Some of the reviews absolutely praise the black system. They claim there is no other class d system that sounds like it and let's not forget this system has been out since 2014 and it is still a current model. Belcanto states that they have no plans to change it because they can't find a way to make it better.
I appreciate all of your responses though and you have given things to think about! Keep the feedback coming! |
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@whitecamaross
1. I would not. But this question is about you, and you most certainly will. Whether it's to the Bel Cantos, I cannot predict absolutely...however, given your penchant for moving forward with amps, the probability is high.
As for my reasons why I would not...I like the ARC sound and performance. Perfectly satisfying for me. I don't know the Bel Canto Black line, so I have no reference regarding it.
2. If by 'enhance your listening experience' you mean learn about the comparative sound between your current gear and the Bel Cantos, the answer is Yes. As for 'how so:' it's your Raison d'etre, so to speak.
3. Probably not. At this level there are just very specific preferences.
All the best with your choices. |
The chance of your finding anyone who has had both the ARC gear and the Bel Canto with similar speakers is slim to none. I own the same pre and virtually the same amp (Ref 150se). I believe that generally speaking, the resale value on the ARC gear will be stronger. As you yourself have mentioned, Class D amps are like computers, the technological advances with Class D continues to evolve and what seems to be state of the art and beyond potential improvement now is quickly proven to be temporary and incorrect respectively. You have also mentioned your distaste for having to replace tubes. I believe you have overstated the cost-even from Upscale Audio which tends to be a bit pricier than the competitors, $1000 is more than enough to replace all the amp tubes and they should last two or even three years of average use. You revealed the small, no make that big fortune you have spent on this journey to sample every top amp known to man-in comparison $330/yr is chump change. Some still hate the concept and I understand but believe it to be misguided. The car you drive loses a little life every year, so does just about everything in your home (appliances, carpet, etc) and while I gather you are young, guess what, you are declining physiologically every day after the age of 18 too. Sorry to be a downer, but just ask your doctor. |
You need to try the Bel Canto at home first. Don't forget about trying the Devialet 440 pro! |
You really should try some Tekton Design speakers, specifically the Double Impacts., before you give up your amps. Save yourself alot of money.
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Ok, i will make things a bit interesting here and for the first time gather input from everyone. As some of you may know, i own the audio research reference 6 and the audio research GS150 amp and sonus faber IL Cremonese speakers, aurender n100h streamer and gamut cd3 reference cd player.
So far i find it good sounding (amp has 50 hours or so, preamp has about 490 hours). That said, as i said above, i have the opportunity to purchase a bel canto black system and trade in my audio research set up.
My questions to you all are these:
1. Would you make the switch from the audio research above and go into the bel canto black system? if so, why?
2. Do you think this switch will enhance my listening experience? how so?
3. Is this a mistake in terms of sound quality? Please elaborate with this question.
I am very curious as to how many of you follow my thread and answers to these questions will certainly help me make a decision. You are now in the drivers seat and can either make me move into the bel canto black system or push me away from doing so.
I look forward to your responses guys ! |
Update on gs150: So as the break in continues, i STILL find the krell 403e connected to my reference 6 preamp sounding damn near identical to the gs150. I mean, i am closing my eyes and try to find a difference and MAYYYYBE at times and depending on the song i can actually a slight tiny difference: a little more depth in the sound and at times a tad more sparkle, but again this is splitting hairs here and i have to actually be looking for these differences.
So far, my early assessment of tube amps -this gs150 to be specific- is that i am not impressed and not willing to shell out 1300 dollars for an entire tube set every 4,000 hours when my solid state amp is damn near identical when connected to the same source and same preamp. however, i can see value in a tube preamp more than tube amp. I am telling you all, your system needs to be 200% dialed in for tubes in order to really capitalize on what tubes can do.
Please note, this is my early assessment of my amp at 60 hours. My preamp has 493 hours so it is already broken in. |
i am hoping as well Kenny. I just need to figure out a few things first and then if it all falls into place, i may pull the trigger. |
whitecamaross,
I hope you can swing the black system,
I would be looking forward to your take on that top class d setup.
Kenny.
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UPDATE: i just wanted to let everyone know that the deal with the person i was buying the luxman pieces from fell through so i won't be getting luxman at this time.
That said, this opened up funds for me to possibly buy something that ALOT of people have praised to me: BELCANTO BLACK SYSTEM. I am not 100% certain, but i may end up selling my audio research reference 6 and audio research gs150 if i decide to buy the black system. It would be a total shift for me to go from all tubes to all class d. However, the bel canto black system is supposed to be the elite in terms of class d. Nothing is supposed to surpass it. |
@whitecamaross - I agree about the Plinius - I'm not looking for another amp. I just mentioned the XPA 3, because I had it at one time and I was wondering if others hard heard the amp - especially since Emotiva amps entered the discussion.
Dave
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Anyhow guys, I think the 403e krell has shocked me with what it can do with tube preamps. I am also starting to believe that sonus faber cremonese may sound better with quality watts from solid state amps
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Dave,
that Odeon continues to be the best multichannel amp period. Don't waste your time looking for a replacement because there's none. The only way to improve upon that amp is by buying monos for all channels or a 2/3/2 amp combination. Yes the krell 402e/403e/402e would kill the Odeon but look at the amount of money and the amount of electricity plus heat.
In a single chassis multichannel amp, nothing beats the plinius Odeon. I don't care where you look. NOTHING. No ATI, theta dreadnaught (yuck), classe, parasound, bryston, nad, Cary audio, etc.
That is one hell of an amp.
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Looking forward in your continued coverage and shoot-out(s)- whitecamaross. Happy Listening!
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Has anyone tried the Gen 3 of the Emotiva XPA amps? I had the XPA-7 Gen 3 for a while, and it was a nice amp. Plenty of power for sure, but not as full sounding as I like. I now have a Plinius Odeon (thanks to the recommendation from whitecamaross :-), and it is working out very nicely.
Dave
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I had one of the XPA amps, and they made too many budget cutting decisions on that line. A Halo A21 I brought in to compare blew away the XPA amp. Those XPR and XPA-1L amps are probably better, but they are both long out of production, something Emotiva keeps doing. Introduce a new line, and then cancel it within a couple of years. They need to build their lines, not cancel them. |
@thezaks - I have Emotiva XPR-1 monoblocks for my left/center/right/sub. Emotiva XPA-1L monoblocks for left/right surrounds. At the time I had the Theta Casablanca IV, I believe I was using Hi-Fi Tuning Gold fuses in the amps. Using B&W Diamond D2 speakers for fronts. The Emotiva’s are very strong and fast amps. Very high resolution. The stock XPR-1 was actually soft sounding and a bit cold (weird for being soft, but true). A fuse replacement fixed this. I am running Furutech rhodium fuses in all pieces of equipment now (including the Krell). I also, replaced / soldered in new fuse clips on the XPR-1 power board because the stock ones were really weak. The new ones have rock hard grip/contact on the fuses. These were the larger 6x32 spring metal fuse clips. When I upgraded to B&W speakers, I didn’t have a good amp from my selection that worked well with this. I used Crown CTS600, Crown CTS2000, and Channel Island 200W Class D monos. The Channel Island were actually the best sounding with the B&Ws. Then I tried an Emotiva XPA-1 monoblock and found that this beat out all the other three. The Emotiva had enough current to handle the B&Ws and the resolution and impact was just so much higher! Historically, I have used B&K 7 channel (too warm!) and Sunfire Cinema Grand (dull sounding). I don’t have as deep of pockets as whitecamaross, so I can’t justisfy higher end amps such as Pass Labs, etc. If I ever thought about upgrading, it might be to try out the JC1 monoblocks. However, these are FET devices and I’m not sure that I would like that slant towards warm/FET sound. It’s hard to beat a 1,000 watt differential monoblock with huge power supply, 36 transistor devices. I may look at replacing all electrolytic and film caps on the amp boards and input board. |
Dave,
i don’t really run many amps in home theater anymore. To be quite honest i started this journey analyzing home theater amps and sometimes their 2 channel performance as well but using a processor as my preamp. Anyhow this journey has evolved into 2 channel simply because home theater for me has taken a back seat. I enjoy a good movie with great sound, but when you have a 14 month old sleeping upstairs, i cant enjoy subwoofers exploding dynamicly like they should and i can’t have action scenes vibrating my entire room. Long story short, my home theater experience has really diminished due to my daughter. I can’t watch movies during the day because i work and at night i hate having to watch a movie listening at low volumes. I don’t quite enjoy movies when i have to really turn down the volume. This is WHY i shifted over to 2 channel because i can certainly enjoy good music at pretty much any volume. I dont need a subwoofer for it either so the bass created by my speakers isnt of the same depth as what subwoofers do. Maybe one day i will go back to watching movies, but for now i occasionally watch movies with 2 front speakers and 2 surround speakers (no center or subs). |
@auxinput:
I'll keep this short, since this is whitecamaross' amp thread. I had the Krell S1200U 3D, and it was my second favorite processor for both movies and 2ch, when no EQ is applied. First would still have to be the Theta CBIV. With RoomPerfect, the McIntosh jumps slightly ahead of the Krell (in my room). With Xtreme D-2 dacs, the CBIV is actually a touch smoother than the Krell - kind of the opposite of what you found. I now have the Xtreme D-3 DAC, which does make it more dynamic.
I did not find the Krell or the Theta shouty or bright or thin or harsh solid state in my room/setup. If anything, I found the XMC1 (which I also owned for a period of time) a little bit thinner and not as smooth sounding.
The SP3 is liked by a lot of folks, and I have not seen it described as you have described it. Perhaps there's something different with the rest of your system and/or room that is contibuting - so, getting back to the subject of this thread - what amps are you running with your setup?
Dave
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Whitecamaross I hope can get a Devialet 220 or 440 pro in your home to compare to Pass & Krell.
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Thanks for the feedback Ron. I'm glad you liked my input and my recommendation. Having owned tons of amplifiers, I can usually have a pretty good idea of what an amp might bring to a system. I've heard many amps in my home and understand the pros and cons of each for the most part.
Please keep me posted of how the amp progresses. As I stated above, most amps will sound best after a few hours of use. I think the only amps that don't need a warm up are class d amps.
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