Yeah, the monkeys are quiet. :) Not sure if the drives have started shipping. |
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This new developmeent is going to be interesting. I recently did one of those Lenco heavy plinth rebuilds and I was blown away by the immediacy and dynamics it brought out in every arm/cart combination I tried. My long suffering wife pointed out to me that it didn't really matter what arm I had on, the Lenco just sounded better than the Micro-Seiki RX5000 and the heavy plinth SP10 Mk2 with the 4Kg Audiolife platter that makes this deck a top performer. I don't get any rumble, hum or bearing noise issues from the refurbed lenco on its 65lb solid maple.movado plinth.
So the thought of the Verus against my RX 5000 could be irresistable.
Arms used: SME V; Transplanar VII; Micro MAX 282 (just sold) EPA 100; Lustre GST801. Carts are ZYX UNIverse, Koetsu RS, Kondo IO-j, Technics 205CMK4, Empire 750 LTD
Steve |
"Do we think he spent three years designing a NOISIER motor than the off-the-shelf ones he's been buying from Maxon?"
Doug, with all respect, this seems a simplification, as it is the spectra of the noise, not simply the magnatude, that is of issue, and it is very possible that, as listeners, we react differently to different noise specta, much as is the case with amplifier distortion. So you or Chris may prefer the new motor, and someone else might not. |
As already posted on another thread, this "monkey" will be trying a Verus out when they become available. ;-)
Chazzbo's concern about rumble transmission into the platter is legitimate and well thought of, but perhaps he's never heard a Teres. Even their belt drive motors are far quieter than those used on most other TT's. That is why Teres, Galibier and Redpoint are able to use non-compliant belts that provide superior torque coupling between motor and platter. Despite this unforgiving coupling there is NO audible rumble on any of these tables. VPI and others use rubber belts to protect their platters from inherently noisy motors. Teres & its cousins don't have to.
Now add the fact that the Verus (and Certus) motors were custom designed and custom built by Chris. Do we think he spent three years designing a NOISIER motor than the off-the-shelf ones he's been buying from Maxon? Somehow I doubt it. Paul and I worked with Chris for nearly a year trouble-shooting the last generation Reference II motor and fine-tuning its controller algorithm. He is very aware of motor speed and noise issues and wouldn't knowingly offer a motor/drive system with audible rumble.
Chazzbo's concern is legitimate, but I'm hopeful Chris has addressed it with his usual good engineering. I'll be astonished (and very disappointed) if rumble is a problem.
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Like Pauly, I'm not sure there's a huge distinction between idler wheels and a large diameter O-ring for platter/motor coupling. Either one can have or develop flat spots, cracks or other flaws that would be audible. But O-rings are readily obtainable. Getting well polished rings with no surface irregularities will be important, but fairly simple. McMaster Carr probably has them.
Given the enormous and genuine enthusiasm from idler wheel folks like Cmo and a host of others, despite the motor problems some Garrards are famous for, why wouldn't we want to hear a similar drive technology implemented with a state of the art motor? I don't understand the dismissive reaction.
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My own concern (in advance of hearing) is that the elasticity of the O-ring material might still allow some slewing on bigger transients. Paul and I hate rubbery sounding transients, we don't even like rubber feet beneath our motor or table, so we'll be listening for that. If we decide to keep the Verus I'll probably experiment with O-rings of different durometers and materials. Performance differences would probably be platter dependent, but I've little doubt they'd be audible.
My .01,
Doug
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Idler wheels are not directly coupled to the motor and do allow a minute amount of slippage where as rim drive is directly coupled to the motor. I agree that the success of this application will come down to just how well the control loop is implemented.
The rumble issue as I understand it has to do with wheels being out of round, cheap cast-metal platters, and/or motor vibrations through the plinth. Anyway, I don't think it is a given that an idler or rim-drive is going to suffer rumble just because it is an idler or rim-drive.
I haven't heard the Teres rim-drive but I did have the opportunity to hear the direct-drive prototype. Even though it sounds cliche I'm going to say it anyway. It really was like lifting another veil and getting closer to the music on the recording. Ok, maybe not new technology in general. However, the direct-drive was very impressive and showed tremendous potential, but not cheap. So, this is perhaps a way to allow those who can't afford a Certus to still benefit from an advancement.
I really can't see Chris putting out something that he is not happy with and he seems to have pretty high standards. I remain curiously open-minded. Again, we'll see what the reports are when the "monkeys" get to start banging it around. |
Sure is interesting. I just measured the platter height of my VPI TNT and it looks like this motor would drop straight in to my setup.....a rim drive TNT!!....wonder what that would sound like?? Certainly a totally different approach to VPI's decoupled motor/flywheel arrangement.
I've been weighing up the possible benefits of the 25lb VPI super platter - but this motor would be a much more interesting experiment (especially since I already have the original 22lb platter). |
From the Teres website
"Direct Coupling utilizes a large diameter pulley, an o-ring and gravity to directly couple the motor to the platter eliminating the degradations introduced by belts and idler wheels"
How is this anything other than an idler wheel?
Methinks I'll pass on this one. |
Fella's I have to say after switching to a Garrard 301 idler drive I'll nver go back to a belt. This seems like the same premise and is very interesting IMHO.
Chris |
Seems like this goes against the grain but I am interested in that whole comparison of better speed but more rumble.But I am sure their on strings here and asylum ,more than I would want to read.BTW anybody catch that Nakamichi what was it model 1000 DD TT that had everything including compensator for off center spindle holes,azimuth control etc. etc.Sold used for a cool $14K.Can't imagine what it went for new.But Nakamichi used to be that company.Hear that their main business was no in fact tape decks or any audio but magnetic research and products for military.But I wonder how a rim drive can be better in terms of rumble than a belt even though one would expect dead accurate speed.Yet when tested most decks don't deviate from speed by perceptible amounts at least decently made 9as opposed to expensive ones) so don't see it myself.
Chazz |
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The Verus outer-rim drive may not be shipping yet. For an upgrade, check with Chris to see if you can try the new drive before returning your old outboard motor.
Looking at the line drawing, I wonder if the small nub on the bottom allows the Verus simply to lean into the platter while one of the 'wings' on the base stops against the stand to prevent the drive from torquing around. Just speculation on my part.
Tim
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More importantly, Teres tables aren't the only ones to potentially benefit from this rim-drive motor.
Hell, I'm tempted to DIY a wheel adapter for my Scheu outboard motor pod and gives this a try. Won't have the micro-controller for speed, but should at least give a hint at what's possible. (though, torque may be an issue) |
Two completely different Teres animals. Older models can be fitted with the new rim-drive. As I understand it this is trickle down technology from the development of the new Teres direct drive model. From Chris's comments on the improvement it does seem like a worthwhile investment. Hopefully, we'll be getting some impressions soon. |
If you read the description this is not a direct-drive motor at all. At least not in the commonly accepted sense where the motor is built around the main bearing. In the Teres scheme, the platter is driven by the motor through some sort of intimate contact. In some sense, this is closer to rim drive than direct-drive. Semantics perhaps. I do not mean to bring up the whole boring "which is better direct-drive, rim drive or belt drive" thing and I am glad that you did not go there either. |
