Seems to be the case. Shorter/thicker generally gets the nod. Not sure how much audible difference there would be. That said, just did a quick search for "0" AWG OFC wire, pretty cheap, especially by A-phile standards. Seems to be popular for car installs. Guess it can't hurt to try.......Not sure if terminations for that stuff would fit standard binding posts or strips, but I'm sure there are methods..............Any non-audiophile would surely think you'd lost your senses seeing battery cable hanging off your speakers. Lots of things in this hobby are/seem crazy, but if they work for you in your system, I guess it's not crazy........I might try it. Looks doable for less than $100.
No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this!
Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup?
I think I've figured it out.
Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup?
I think I've figured it out.
774 responses Add your response
Mr. glupson1 It is not that simple. As if it would, it would be an old story, everybody knows. In some cases, when the DF is low, as it is often with Tube amplification, a thick and short cable won't help. For amplifiers with other than A or A/B class (like D-class) it is also not applicable. So it is with none coil speakers (as ribbon). For the main stream, that do use A/B class and coil loaded, there is a formula to get an optimum thickness, based on the DF and cable length. However, it is most recommended to have the optimum thickness and length recommended. Getting thicker or shorter or both, above that optimum, would cost more, but not be of any sonic benefit (improvement). It is rather recommended to keep the cable shorter, than get it thicker due to its extra length. |
Does it all come down to "use the thickest and shortest cable there is" or am I simplifying it way too much? The idea about jumper cables, as extreme as it may be, seems brilliant for this discussion. If they work, and they should to some extent at least, it would take away a lots of wire statements frequently thrown around on many a thread. |
b4icu..........thank you again. I did have my amp between the speakers until recently, with shorter cables. The spot was inconvenient, but I understand your point, shorter is better.......and less expensive :)............Most here seem to be male, I made that assumption in your case.............My apologies. |
Mr.
shadowcat2016 Please no "Sir". Before
you spend some money on a 0 AWG speaker cable, I would recommend you an
experiment, that might cost you little of nothing. |
@b4icu Thank you sir, I'm not sure I buy what you're selling..........for free as you say:), but I may look for some 0 awg and give it a try. It could prove interesting..............It's obvious that I have a WAY smaller budget than many here, and my system reflects that. That said, I'm always looking for ways to improve what I hear.........If the "0" gauge wire doesn't do anything for my system, I can always use it to tow a car or something :) |
@b4icu I believe that the current retail for a set of M1's is little over US $ 100k, however the Pendragons were sold for about US 175k. Bargaining on this kind of equipment is not easy. Even where I live (Indonesia) where indeed you are expected to bargain, however the moment you go for so called "high-end" there is not much bargaining anymore. You may get a good discount on a Toyota, but will pay the full price for a Lamborghini. As mentioned before, I'm happy with the sound I'm getting. Unfortunately current main issue is my room acoustics, I have moved house some time ago, and haven't tuned my new room yet. Major/alarming difference compared to my previous room. But a bit off-topic to elaborate about that on this thread. |
Mr. han_n
I found it here: https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/ch-precision-m1-mono-amplifier/ The Gryphon Pendragon speakers are $195,000.- : http://www.milliondollarstereos.com/speakerlist.php?category=speakers&pagenum=4 I hope you have the time to enjoy it. Must be a fantastic sound. |
Mr. stevecham
For example, if you would connect a cable, that has a 0.005 Ohms (one red and one black) that have a combined value of the same 0.010 Ohm, your DF would drop due to those cables from 500 to 250. That's like paying for that amp $37,000 but enjoy only 1/2 of that. Most, use long an thin cables that would reflect a resistance that would limit the amps DF by 80% or more. This is paying $37,000 but using only $7,400 of its potential. The rest, $29,600 will wait for a better time when a better cable will come…if it will ever come.
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Mr. shadowcat2016 For your setup, a 2x0 AWG is recommanded. A 10 AWG has 10 times the resistance of a 0 AWG. The Bi-wire is a mistaken concept. A single wire that has the added thickness of the two of Bi-wire, would do better. If you would run this simulation on "Spice" you would see that. For the wire you have and the wire you need, it is x20 times worst. Whay do you say: "I’ll play, why not, I might learn something useful". This service (doing the calculation for you) is given for free. At least for now... :-) |
@b4icu This has been interesting and might I add amusing to read.........OK, I'll play, why not, I might learn something useful.........Bryston 4BST amp, bi-wired to Vandersteen 3A signature speakers. Advertised DF is 500+ if I recall correctly.........Currently using 15 foot runs of Belden 10AWG, two per speaker to single terminal on the amp.............What's your suggestion? |
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@b4icu You wrote "The Bi wire - Bi amp on the Gryphon Pendragon Mid/High unit won't give you any improvement. only cost way more, if you think of another pair of CH M1's ($37,000.- each)." No, that's a little misunderstanding, I have no intention to buy another pair of M1 amps. Currently I'm using one M1 in stereo mode. Later I will add another M1 and will operate the units in mono mode. So no bi-amping. just mono blocks. The bi-wiring cable is just there because it has been there for many years, not specifically for this set up. I have no intention of buying another cable, just use as is. |
@b4icu First of all thanks for going the distance and trying to help. It's really appreciated. As for the cable, as mentioned before, this cable is an old cable, which I had bought several years ago at a very reasonable price. Any money spent on buying a 12 AWG wire is extra money in my case. Most likely my current very thick cable won't harm either. The main reason I reacted is for you to show that you don't just talk, but will take the opportunity to TRY to help people. Some may appreciate, others won't. That's okay, accept it as a matter of fact. Of course I know that in my particular case the power amp is inside the bass towers, and I know that for ribbons other rules apply. That's also the reason I haven't spent any money on buying speaker cables specifically for the ribbons. I'm a ribbon lover, (the sound they produce) have used Apogee Grands before. Again, appreciated for the effort you have put in. Did not expect that. |
I assume, that my word wouldn't count till now, from your lovely response. However, maybe this answer from a Swiss respected firm's engineer (CH), would: "As a loudspeaker cable of a few meters probably has an impedance of more than 10 mOhm, it might actually have a dominant effect compared to the amplifier's output load, at full global feedback". Even thou in the case of the Gryphon Pendragon , none would apply. But Mr. Loris Stehlé couldn't know that. I'm amazed that CH official answer didn't involved any of the most preposterous claims, of that cable's directionality, the skin effect, the burn in or some of the even none relevant of your posts. Why is it so difficult for you to accept this?
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Mr. han_n
I'd call CH Swiss to check about your M1 Amp.: " Dear Michael, Thank you for your interest in our
products. The damping factor of an amplifier being the ratio between the connected loudspeaker's impedance and the amplifier's output impedance, we can not publish a single number. We would need to publish a damping factor for each possible load (like any amplifier manufacturer should), but also for every setting of global versus local feedback ratio of our amplifier (which is user-adjustable on the fly from fully global to fully local, with 9 evenly-spaced steps in between), as this setting has a direct effect on the M1's output impedance. At full global feedback, the M1's output impedance is measured at 0.013 Ohm. So in a 8 Ohm loudspeaker, this means a damping factor of 615. At full local feedback (no global feedback at all), the M1's output impedance is 0.09 Ohm. So in a 8 Ohm loudspeaker, this means a damping factor of about 90. As a loudspeaker cable of a few meters probably has an impedance of more than 10 mOhm, it might actually have a dominant effect compared to the amplifier's output load, at full global feedback. I hope this answers your question. Best regards, Loris Stehlé" If we go for the best I would say that the M1 \'s DF is >500. But when I looked into your speakers: Gryphon Pendragon http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/media/1408/manual-pendragonv2.pdf I found that the bass unit is self amplified by a 1,000W amp. It is connected to your Pre. by XLR and no speaker cable is required. The Mid/High unit is a ribbon. So a regular wire (12 AWG would do). Even thou your system is very expensive, you can save big on the cables. :-) The Bi wire - Bi amp on the Gryphon Pendragon Mid/High unit won't give you any improvement. only cost way more, if you think of another pair of CH M1's ($37,000.- each). |
Mr.
geoffkait How low can you go? Little errors lead to big errors - No more error talking to you! |
Mr.
glupson Thanks. If only we could keep talking on the subject. Now most of the posts are none relevant. |
@b4icu As mentioned before, the cables were made by Kharma. (grand reference speaker cable). Did not buy new, but at an auction. This is a silver/gold alloy cable, with an anti-vibration tube around it. Does it matter? I don’t know, all I know is that I’m happy with what I’m hearing. Price?? This is an old cable, which many years ago would cost US $ 20k or more, I paid about 1/10th of that amount for a 3 meter set. The diameter of the conductor going into one spade (factory terminated, and bigger spades than usual) is about 8mm. So I’m using two of that. Why? because it’s there anyway. Bought the cables years ago for another speaker set-up. By the way, in principle I don’t buy many new cables. Prices of second hand cables drop quite a bit, prices of cables at auctions are even much lower yet. Used to use Siltech cables in the past, did like those as well. Again, never bought new cables. |
b4icu Geoffkait - You can not chalange me on technical arguments, so you push it to none relevant subjects. >>Two things. I can spell challenge and non. And I pointed out your technical error regarding the relative conducting capabilities of silver and copper. You were off by 30%. Looks relevant to me. “Little errors lead to big errors.” |
Mr.
geoffkait What about finding yourself something useful to do? All you contribute, are notes that has nothing to do with the subject. You can not chalange me on technical arguments, so you push it to none relevant subjects. What do you gain of it, except getting a bad reputation? |
b4icu"I'm sorry you had nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation" That is not his fault, responsibility, or deficiency the problem is that this thread is moronic in nature, substance, and topic because the claim, assertion and conviction of the OP can be shown to be confused, disoriented and mistaken as its basis, claim, and fundamental premise is flawed and defective. |
Mr.
stevecham I'm sorry you had nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation. The thing is very simple. I can provide you with the data you need, of what cable would serve your system best. Upon, you are welcome to try it and see for yourself. What if that would sound much better than what you have now? You should try it, rather than kick and shout sitting on the floor saying you don't want it. |
Mr.
han_n The amp has no data on it's DF. I sent an e-mail to find that out. I need that to do the calculation. Regarding your bi-Wire, it is not a good idea. Bi amp and Bi wire: yes. A single wire equal to the gauge of the bi wire combined, would do better than the bi wire. So this aproach is of no practical benefit. Did you say 4/0 AWG? How much did they cost and who made them? |
A real skeptic has curiosity and investigates and tries to get to the bottom of things. A real skeptic can sometimes change his mind, you know, based on experience or evidence. An overly skeptical person, on the other hand, ✋refuses to change his mind for any reason, even in the face of contradicting evidence. I.e., his mind 🧠 is closed on the subject. Capish? That’s where the P word comes from, you know, the word that’s been uh, outlawed. |
And what defines an expensive high end cable? What price point please? I just may have purchased one or two sets in the past and I need to make sure what side of the "end" I fall on. The reason we don't see complaints from people who spent money on expensive high end cables is that they are too embarrased to admit that they wasted money on a wish, a prayer and gossamer. |
b4icu: If you have such a "formula," which implies a quantitative, calculated solution based on quantifiable input factors and the means, instrumentation or otherwise to verifiably measure such quantitative variables, what are the factors that are measured and used to calculate the optimal speaker cable features? I’ll bet you have absolutely NO such measurable factors and no such instrumentation and are simply blowing smoke up all of our proverbial exit chimneys. Quantifiable, calculations, formulas, measurable? Yeah, uh huh, right. |
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b4icu, "...you really think that giving away this formula is a brilliant idea, to satisfy your personal need to know?"I do not think it is a brilliant idea but I also see no harm, unless a person is starting a business with that formula. Of course, there is no desperate need to disclose it either way, the world will go on. I am not arguing about validity of questioning and establishing the formula, but the topic and intention of the original post is less than clear. It got even less clear over the ensuing posts. Those people who do buy stories and expensive cables may be happy, too. The value of those cables perceived by you and me may be different than value of those cables perceived by them. It works for them, if for nothing else then because the cable came with a story. Many products are marketed like that and buyers are not only happy but proud, too. The tone of your posts suggests that you dislike expensive cable manufacturers approach and stories they attach to their products. You imply you, to say it simplified, have a formula that is far superior to their stories. As a neutral observer, I would say that putting your facts/formula out would go much further in debunking the myths than just saying "they are bad and I figured it all out". It would simply give more credibility to your statements. I have no personal need to know the formula or any theory behind wires, but I do hope that han_n does find your calculations useful. It would definitely be much-needed first step in some meaningful direction. By the way, out of sheer curiosity, how did you guess that I am "Mr" and not "Mrs"? |
@b4icu Sorry, I meant the cable type is for bi-wiring, meaning directly after the amp output cable spades (factory terminated) the cable is split into two, so at the speaker terminals it could feed into two pair of terminals per speaker. Luckily the terminals used for the Gryphon Pendragons are really very big, so they can accommodate 2 spades in one terminal, That way I have double the wire gauge. Any use, I don’t know, I already had these cables anyway, and I’m quite happy with the overall performance of my set-up. |
Mr.
han_n I can help you. Please tell me what amp. and speakers you have, what is the required length of the speaker cables to connect them, and what is the cable (gauge) you are using now. I'll do that calculation for you. |
@b4icu You seem to misunderstand my point, all I'm saying here is that even amongst you guys -I do not doubt the intelligence of any of you in this discussion, in fact I'm often impressed- there is a disagreement, so for somebody like me it will be difficult to come to a simple conclusion. So if I would be using a GPS NAV, whilst obviously it would not be clear in giving me directions how to find the best route, I may switch it off, and find my way the old fashioned way. Don't worry, I have done that for over 40 years or so, and it is not impossible. Currently I do not know if I have the best possible system at home, or may be that I have paid too much for that, I'm fine with that too. I have the satisfaction I'm looking for, so I'm okay. |
Mr. han_n Would you use the same method when you are driving your car
to an unfamiliar place? Just drive and drive without any particular direction,
till you find it (or not). Willing to pay the money and time? As with GPS NAV, with a formula and science, you can get the right and optimal cable on your first attempt. It will save you the time and money chasing that till end of times. Because even if you are there (not knowing) you may continue the journey to find a better one, that do not exist. Good luck and enjoy, your blind folded search. I hope that when it will get to a cure for a disease, you will find more effectives ways to get it. It may also be an eye opener for other things in life, you try to solve. |
Mr.
glupson In a market that is loaded with schemes, awkward tells of directional wires, skin effect and many more, cables that goes for thousands and tens of thousands of dollars, you really think that giving away this formula is a brilliant idea, to satisfy your personal need to know? Did you ask for the formula from other sources, that are in the industry and tell those awkward tells of directional wires, skin effect and many more? Most, had buy the story (with the cable) without the formula! Because there is no formula for those tells. The only formula they have is marketing and cash flow. |