Ebay is selling 25 feet of 0 AWG copper wire for $23. I will buy it, install it and report back. I have five feet of cable between amp and speakers. Any other instructions? For me the hobby is about experimenting.
No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this!
Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup?
I think I've figured it out.
Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup?
I think I've figured it out.
774 responses Add your response
Be civil, people. Personal invective is mean-spirited and counterproductive, (A certain amount of generalized invective launched into the aether can be fun.) As an audio dilettante and a scientist, I find all the discussions of cables not based on laws of physics or blind comparisons to be , well, entertainment. BE NICE NOW! |
Mr. keppertup
Siver has a 9% better conductivity than cooper. It should cost 94 times more. A 16 AWG silver wire would have a very similar resistance to a 16 AWG cooper wire. For the price of the silver ( $2.87 per foot ) you should buy it by the mile and sel by the ounce. Your Hegel H200 integrate amp has a Df of 1,000. Very good. http://www.hegel.com/images/discontinued/H200manualenglish.pdf That would call (by calculation) to a 2x 0 AWG cable @ 8' long. How long is your cable? You might have $9,500.- value of speaker cables that were all purchased without any serious guidance, to become obsolete inventory. What you need is a set of 2 x 0 AWG, if 8' long, that should cost you less than $2,500.- |
I experience the same results with the silver wire ladder design driving a second system consisting of a Hegel H200 integrate amp driving Aria A speakers (Joe D’Appolito three-way design employing Cabasse cone woofer and Accutron ceramic drivers). I buy 16AWG naked .999 pure solid silver wire from a jewelry industry supplier in New Mexico for $2.87 per foot and poly sleeve on Amazon for $.14 per foot. It only takes 30 minutes to assemble these cables (cut silver and sleeve to length, insert wire in sleeve, attach spacers to cables and attach wire to terminals). Measuring the differences between conventional materials and designs when compared to the ladder described, with instruments other than my ears, is beyond my ken. Invest $70 and thirty minutes and let your ears be your guide. For over thirty years, I to, was a cable denier. I have $9,500 of various unsatisfying cables sitting in drawer or were resold. I wonder if the measurement sciences have caught up to the reality of how electrons behave when transmitted via different materials, and in proximity to the signal and ground wires. Happy listening. |
Mr. kosst_amojan Speaker cables are not supose to have any inductive or capacitance values. It is a cooper wire. You wrote: " 16g conductors in a round braid" By putting them into paired parallel lines, twisted 6 fabric insulated 16g conductors, get them some small values of impedance. My cables are two separate cables, so no inductance or capacitance are involved. You are telling a tell of a wire you made, but how you ended up with that particular value of cable resistance, to fit your system! Was it a divin revelation in your dream, that instructed you to build those cables, as the rest of the arc? You call me a liar, at a time you can not tell the diference between an interconnect and a speaker cable. A power amp. input resistance is usually 10kOhms, and it is pasive resustance. The speaker is 4-8ohms, a complex coil loaded impedance. Interconnects have a shield to ground and a capacitance developed between the two. Good speaker cables, unless you twist them, have none. An interconnect need to pass milliamps, a speaker cables pass 1000 to 10,000 more current. Giving a jumpstart with good 4-0 AWG speaker cables would do. Doing that with an interconnect cable...? Well they are not the same, and bever were. I’m not a liar, but you do not understand a thing in electronics or audio. Calling me that again, will end up with a comlpain and no more answers! |
B4icu, You’re genuinely clueless. I’ve built cables. The cables I’m listening to right now are made of 6 fabric insulated 16g conductors in a round braid. I built them to replace single 12g cables of exactly the same length. They sound dramatically different even though the 6 conductor cables are nominally a half wire gauge bigger. That half wire guage doesn’t account for the difference. The reduced induction and twice the surface area of the conductors does. Whoever told you cables are an extension of the amp lied to you. Cables have inductance, capacitance, and impedance, just like a speaker, which makes them a load unto themselves, be it a relatively minor one. Anything beyond the output posts is a load. Anybody claiming to build ideal cables for any particular amp, speaker, or listener’s taste is a liar. If you really did invent the formula for ideal speaker cables, the same formula would work for interconnects because a pre-amp driving an amp is nothing more than a source driving a load and the electrical considerations are exactly the same. Thanks for the nonsensical snake oil pitch, but you make no sense, contradict well understood electrical theory and testing, and speak in semantic riddles that reflect no technical understanding. |
Ohms
law is saying that too, as any relation between U (voltage), I (current) and R
(resistance). U= I x R |
@b4icu said: For the 3x0 AWG suggestion: My suggestion was for 3 AWG at 8’. @b4icu, you are sadly mistaken. This quote demonstrates your ignorance of the electrical “engineering” subject matter that you profess expertise in. For your information, Ohm’s Law states that resistance (in Ohms) is equal to the potential difference (in Volts) measured across a conductor divided by the current (in Amperes) flowing through it. |
Mr. kosst_amojan
Sorry that all your money could't buy you some knowladge. Skin effect: What about the wires inside the speaker boxes or inside the amplifier? They are in that loop of speaker's cables. · Speaker manufacturer provide FR (Frequency Response) data that was measured in test. · Amplifier manufacturer provide FR data that was measured in test as well as calculated. · The above data is often reviewed and proved by magazines and web sites. They are true. None takes measurements to tangles the skin effect issue. Speaker cable manufacturer's that never provides any piece of technical data, all the sudden do pay special attention to the skin effect. Why? The other part is that what the FR of skin effect is telling us, that a 0 awg cable that has a 150A current capacity, is good up to 250Hz@150A. this cable can still pass way more current at 20kHz than a thin cable. A cable of 19 AWG van pass 21kHz @ 1.8A. A 0 awg can do that too! You say: "Cables are VERY low impedance in the audio spectrum; certainly lower than the output impedance of the vast majority of amps out there". Absolutly incorrect. Most power amplifiers out there are class A/B and have DF of 200 and above. Most speaker cables are 12-14 AWG and are 8'-24' long. Your say VERY low impedance shall get figures. you will find out that the figures are no more that low vs. the output resistance of amplifers, when using 8 ohms / DF. |
Mr. keppertup
Silver has a better conductivity than cooper by 9%. It's cost 94 times more. There is no way you can get a silver wire for $7/feet. Silver's melting point is close to the cooper (about 1,000 deg. C). very hard to work with.
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Mr. stevecham
The speaker's 8 ohms is not a part of this calculation.
Your second par. is also wrong! DF is always related to 8 ohms (@1kHz), even if the actual speaker to connected is other (4 ohms or higher than 8 ohms). It is a fix number = 8. In overall, your way doesn't fit the actual relations, nor explain what different cables sound different. As if you would be right, all cables would sound the same. |
Hi there . For me every thing is simple. Top line speakers as well as amp ,power amp, preamp, cables and ofcours most expensive on entire world . And no question, no more arguments . It must sound good. I might invent something exceptional something extremely good sounding, but who is going to admire it , I got no name. We already have a gurus who are on the top. I should maybe write, money talks as simple. Thank you , nothing to argue about. |
B4icu, Idiotic, poorly written quote. There’s basically nothing to ask you, and I’m not going to stroke your ego by feigning respect for your lack of intelligence by posing an inquiry. Instead, I’m just gonna tell you what’s up. Just making cables thicker only solves the problem of passing low frequency current. Making cables thicker does the exact opposite to higher frequencies due to inductance and skin effect. That’s why practically nobody uses conductors larger than 14g. If more conductor is required, you use multiple conductors. Cables are VERY low impedance in the audio spectrum; certainly lower than the output impedance of the vast majority of amps out there. They’re virtually inconsequential to the damping factor of an amplifier. I’m not sure what made you wake up one morning and think you invented the magic formula everybody else missed for 100 years, but I’m pretty sure you didn’t. |
I have tried many cables to drive modified Magnepan MG IIIa’s with a Pass Labs 250.5. The best so far are DIY five foot cables made with 16AWG .999 pure solid silver inside 1/4” poly sleeve connected directly without termination to amp and speakers. The two leads per side are keep 2 1/2” apart from each other in a ladder design. Every 12” a three each piece of plastic plumbers strap is fixed to the cables with zip ties to keep the cables apart. Total cost: under $7 per foot ($70 for for two five foot cables). The sound is holographic. Best bass these speakers have ever produced. Very revealing mids and highs, particularly with DSD recordings. Happy listening. |
Mr. maplegrovemusic
Thanks. They do not get specific, of what that resistance is or what is the cable length. However, digital amplification (D class) have a different nature of it's output model (electronics) than A/B Class amplifiers, that are most common. Tube amplification is also very different, mostly have high output resistance (relatively to A/B class) or low DF. Athe calcualtion also do not apply to non coil speakers (as ribbon or electrostatic). |
@steve cham -- true. But if the solder or soldered connector brittle, cracked or oxidized, the pins are oxidized or wobbly, or the metal mismatched then you can get plenty of degradation in sound. It's happened to me and some serious pros in a neurobiology lab. Tens of dollars isn't going to beggar anyone. |
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Mr. stevecham I would not recomand of a "1 inch square (cross sectioned), or other rectangular profile, six nines, pure copper bars". It is not flexible at all. What is your guide to end up with that kind of wire? What amp, speaker and distance? Getting a thicker than 12-14 AWG connected to the amp and peaker, requires a short wire that would fit into a banana plug. Ther are such, that can use up to an 8 AWG wire (better than 12-14 AWG). Such ending, can be done for up to 4xo AWG (214 mm2 = 0.33170066340133 sq in). Thats a lot! |
b4icu- Here is a link to a interview with a amp designer. At the 22 minute mark he discusses they have designed a speaker cable that is the correct impedance for their Ion digital amplifier . Your statement above and now watching this video , this is the first I have ever heard anyone mention this . You are onto something here . https://www.dagogo.com/exogal-interview/ |
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Mr. stevecham
Thanks for reading, but I'm concerned the way you do it... I wrote that " The electronic point of view, of looking at the electrical current loop of an amplifier, speaker and cables, the speaker cables are an extension of the amplifier ". Let's say you have an Amp. with a DF of 500. What it means, is that the Amp.'s output resistance is 8 ohms / 500 = 0.016 ohms. If you add your 8' 12 AWG copper wire, it is equivalent to: 0.0256 ohms. (it is by the AWG table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm - using the feet raw, and do 16' as it is 8' for the red, 8' for the black = 8' *2=16' we end up with this 0.0256 ohms. Your cable have a 1.6 times higher resistance than what your amplifier's DF has. This is like degrading your amplifier's spec. to a DF of only 205. The other 300 were desmissed to a time the speaker cables get better. You call it INSIGNIFICANT! (?) If you would have a tube amp. like the Vtl 250 mono blocks, with an output resistance of 0.86 ohms, you would be right. But with a DF higher than 100, your cable are no Transparent Cables, as Mr. chayro, try to claim. They are far from being perfect. They are most likely holding back your system's performance, by 60% or more. If you have spent $10k on your system, try to go ack to the genius who sold you this speaker cable, and try to get a refund of $6k, as that kind of money was spent for nothing. As long as you come up with says that do not rely on some calculations, but only on some bold assumptions based mainly on "Nothing", you can not keep up in this conversation. |
@ Cquinn- Sorry, you are right, invective aside, couldn't help it after spending all that time reading this nonsense. But thank you for the backup. |
morg111, invective aside, is a truth-teller. The article he cites, http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm, is science combined with common sense, and a real money-saver. All that said it makes sense to take care (or pay some company some tens of dollars to take care) with the end connectors to amp and speakers. |
Mr.
chayro How old are you? Cables calculate? If they could also cook we could merry them. |
+1 morg111! What the heck b4icu is spouting is NOT SCIENCE! Example (one of many): "Unfortunately, most speaker cables are of 14-12 AWG and with some length from 8' to 24'. For the length, by increase the length from 8' to 16', in order to keep the same resistance of a cable, the cable's cross-section needs to double. For 24' length it needs to triple and so on." No. That is not correct. And the cable does not contribute to the Damping Factor (DF). Resistance in an 8 ft length of 12 AWG copper wire is INSIGNIFICANT! |
This has got to be one of the dumbest threads ever created around the subject of cables. I read through every single post, holding back laughing and crying the entire time. The OP of this thread doesn’t have the first idea about the science behind the transmission of amplified sound. Instead of wasting my time explaining to you all what is wrong with these posts... you can start down the road of real understanding by reading this- http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm |
Mr. kosst_amojan There is nothing in your observation to disapprove nor approve anything. I'll use Confucius say: The one who asks a question, may look fool for a few minutes. The one who don't, will remain fool for the rest of his lives. |
Mr. fedie
Your Vtl 250 mono blocks have a DF of 9.3! (8 ohms / 0.86). https://www.stereophile.com/content/vtl-225w-deluxe-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements At 4' you may use almost any wire. it won't make any difference. |
I would like to make myself clear about the speaker cables: Speaker cables were never tackled by the audio industry properly. They've been over looked or got a magic approach, rather an engineering approach. Bad for all of us. The roll of speaker cables is to connect the amplifier and the speakers. But not only. It is also to extend the DF of the amplifier. The higher is the DF the better. However, the speaker cables needs to be also better (lower impedance). There is a relation between the two. This relation can be calculated, as per the cable's length and their gauge. Any approach that goes with an empiric "try and error" is mostly of people who do not understand the technical side of this subject. Others have a business oriented interest to keep the crowd in the dark and feed it with confusion. The less the customers know or understand, the better it is for their business. They can tell fairy tales and sale their products well. Some audiophiles are so deep and badly embedded in that crap, that it will take a brain surgery to get rid of that. For those who think that those wire tales of gauge vs. length on the web are helpful, or that they can keep the "try and error" approach, with no particular formula to get closer or zoom in toward a desire result, rather than try to understand and use some science and sense - this conversation was not for them. For those who may accept that there is a physical (electrical) relation and it can be calculated and implemented, it may be a significant way to improve their sound. Unfortunately, most speaker cables are of 14-12 AWG and with some length from 8' to 24'. For the length, by increase the length from 8' to 16', in order to keep the same resistance of a cable, the cable's cross-section needs to double. For 24' length it needs to triple and so on. The electronic point of view, of looking at the electrical current loop of an amplifier, speaker and cables, the speaker cables are an extension of the amplifier. Actually it is an extension of its DF or output resistor. When using that for the analysis, the speaker has almost no significance, as what its impedance is. It has significance for the amplifier, as of what power it needs to drive: low impedance and low efficiency requires more powerful amplification. Those usually come with higher (and better) DF. That calls for a thicker and lower resistance speaker cable. For most, at a time they are ready to accept the extra expanse on amplification, the speaker cables are way over looked. It is a sad decision as the optimal performance of that system is now limited and held back by the poor speaker cable. People that were using 12-14 gauges, 12' long cables, when replacing it with the right cable as for their equipment (0 gauge and just 8' long for DF=500) the sound had improved significantly. This particular example reflects an improvement of x25. It is a tremendous sonic difference. Sometimes, you hear that say, that at a certain level ($) of a sound equipment, you need to double the budget to get as much as 10% improvement. This is a classic case of a better amplifier with even better DF, without taking in consideration the speaker cables. Now it all the sudden has a mathematical explanation, to support the say.
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Mr. stereofro10 I'm sorry for you that after my effort to pass you an insight, you got it all wrong. I see that the say: "It is hard to teach an old dog a new tricks", is true! |
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Doing it with engineering skils is another. I only say that with the engineering skils, you can reach the optimum first time, every time. The listening way, of try and error could be longer, nor promising an optimum result. You may alway assume there is one better out there that would upgrade your sound, without knowing, you are already there and nothing will make it better - only worse. This is the fee of ignorance." That is absolutely ridiculous. My ignorance is continuing to engage in this silly thread, until now ... |
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If 10 people listened live to leaves rustling on a brisk fall day, would all 10 report the same sounds? Would they all pickup the faint sound of a wind chime in the distance? Could they all hear the same birds chirping? I say they would all have similar, but different listening experiences based on focusing on individual things. One may focus in on a bird chirp because they are familiar with that species, another might dismiss that as noise and focus on something else. Do you see where I am going with this? How do you measure that? Music has the same effect on the ears, people hear different things, they focus on different aspects. How do you measure that? Measurements are only a small part of the whole system and listeners that have experimented with all that has been mentioned in this thread, like to use all the different types of cables & tweaks to create the sound they prefer. You are not going to change anyone’s minds here. Your argument has been around for decades and ad nauseam on these type of forums. One can’t listen to cables. I listen to my system with different cables as they do or don’t sound right to me. Cables have no sound, they only contribute to the system’s over all sound, good or bad. |
Mr.
grannyring
For the 3x0 AWG suggestion: My suggestion was for 3 AWG at 8'. You require 20'. That increases the cable resistance by 3 and if you go to the guage table it calls for a 3 times 0 AWG to keep it the same as a 3 AWG of 8' long. That's Ohms law. I only use it for this suggestion. Regaring Mr. Dill's remark of what he can hear, no one's ears can replace measurment instrumentations nor engineering calculation. Whatever you like it or not, Audio precision, HP and more are still in business. If ears would do, we would not need them. What you can hear? As you had tried in a blind test listening to all cables from 14 AWG to the 4x0 AWG and your ears pointed towerd a 12 AWG 99.9% pure cooper with cryo and burn in...? Now you can hire this service, as the standard listening to IEEE. |