No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this! Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup? I think I've figured it out.
Mr. grannyring I feel like my idea was not thoroughly understood. It is not about thickening the wire, the thicker - the better. It is about doing an engineering calculation, that is based on the equipment spec., to specify the precise guage your system requires. In some cases, getting closer to that guage would get a better sound, but after reaching that gauge, getting thicker with the cable, will not add quality, only get more expensive. This is not like tuning in with endless try and error, as it is mostly done today. Your chaise after a specific cooper wire, is not the point. You are captive of cable’s manufacturers promo, with promisses that are not helping your sound getting any better. It is only the product getting more expensive. It is an awful VFM.
Regarding your say on Burn In and Cryo, let me get a bit humoristic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0 It would get you an idea, what I think about those subjects. Especially at 02:05.
Burn In:
A cooper wire with some soldered ends does not need any burn in. What is it good for? Well, if a dealer had demonstrate or/and sold a cable, for some $3,000.- US plus. And unfortunately, that is not delivering the promised superiority.
What that dealer or sales person can say?
"It will open up and sound way better after a burn in".
Most customers have nothing to say against this argument that have been common and accepted for no particular reason. It is taken for granted. For the sale process, it is done and dusted. Good for the dealer, not so good for the customer. He was satisfied by a fishy story over a good product.
Why playing some music at low volume with those cables, hooked up 24/7 for a week, would do the job better, than giving it a jump start to a car or a truck and get the same amount of current flow in less than a minute?
Why would element 29 (Cu) change conductivity properties, over othre metals in this table? Did anyone tested a cable befor and after to say what changed regarding conductivity? For all those says (skin effect and others) to get some nderstanding won’t hurt. None been explained nor proved by an experiment.
I’m happy we don’t live in
times of the Maya empire. That could have end with a human sacrify! on the subject...
I am open to new ideas and do find your ideas interesting. When I say I may disagree I am referring to your chosen cable quality, burn is reality and cryo treatment. Burn in is real and cryo can indeed help the sound. I tend to agree that heavy gauge is usually a plus, not always however. Depends on the rig and listener sonic priorities.
Mr. grannyring, you say: "Based on your way of thinking, which I don’t agree with totally, " It is up to you to accept or decline my say. Please be kind to acknowladge me when and if you get any (other) explanation or way to calculate a speaker cable. As far as my search reached, there is nothing else out there. Most just embrace the usual: high purity cooper (in electricity nothing is made under 99.5%) creyogenic treat, bi wire, burn in, or exotic snake oil :-) All non sintific says, that never convinced me to solve the relations or get the true answer. So, good luck with that.
Mr. sejodiren says: I use jumpers for my speakers. who needs banana plugs... Enjoy. The contact with the clamps of the jumper cables are at a very little area. A good banana plug is way better on contact. also less risky if it disconnects or the red wire touchs the black...
The link goes to a 4 AWG cable that claims 500A. by the guage table, a 4 AWG can conduct only 60A cont. or 135A momentary. Just for the record, not that you need that high current. I also do not like that they are molded in two parallel lines.
Your Amp. is class D (Digital PCM). No DF or output impedance is provided: http://lyngdorf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/tdai-2170-owners-manual_v17.pdf The 30A output is the only clue but not good enough. Speakers: conventional coil loaded. Ok. As so, I'll do an assumption, that the
Lyngdorf 2170 have a DF of 250. For 20' a 3x0 AWG might be required. For an 8' a 3 AWG would do.
The cables you are using, are too long to my like. I understand your managment desire and other esthetic issues. Fire place steals the mid placment option of the Amp. between the two speakers.
Use what ever cable you think is good for you. The one I used had excelent results. You are welcome to take your favorite.
I understand completely OP. Just looking generally at this topic.
20 feet long. Must run cables under the house to keep it clean looking per wife. Fireplace in the center. Lyngdorf 2170 and Dali Epicon 6. I make cables and do mods as a part time gig.
The 2170 is not going ever 🙂
Based on your way of thinking, which I don’t agree with totally, I would need thick gauge. I use 7 AWG now. It comes down to personal preference and listening. However I am always open minded and willing to experiment. You need better conductors than your chosen cable in my opinion. Copper clad aluminum is not as good as I would desire. Thus my post here.
Mr. grannyring What equaipment are you going to connect, and how long your cable is going to be? I’ll repeat my say: not all need a 0 AWG! some don’t need a thick cable at all, some do, some need it even thicker. It better be calculated. It would be a dissapointing DIY project to end it up with no actual sonic benefit. I’m not saying go 0 AWG it’s the best! I’m saying let’s calculate (engineering!) the right cable and than get it, the first time right.
Been reading this and find it interesting. I would buy a tinned finely stranded pure copper 0 gauge wire which may actually sound great based on my experience with stranded tinned copper wire from Duelund, Western Electric and Supra. Such wire is available using oxygen free pure copper. Not sure how I would terminate just yet.
Going back for a minute to the JPS cable Add.: http://www.jpslabs.com/aluminata.shtml Even though it is a power cable, they state: 60A and 14,000W and 250A and 48,000W. Absolutly impressing... By the AWG standard (https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm) a 60A requires an 8 AWG and 250A a 000 AWG (50% thicker than a 0 AWG. Two are required and a GND). None would fit into that cable, even it looks really thick. Do you see the nylon sleev? It’s for you not to see what is beneath it. However, the IEC standard 60906-2 (2011) limits the power to 20A. Older versions are up to 15A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country Any liscenced electrician would tell you that. What they state is not legal. That would end with burned or melted pins on the plug. A house line is also limited and even the 60A needs a 3 phase instalation. The plug showen is for 1 phase. A long story is told there, without any sense to back up the price (?). I'm just trying to show you guys, what is going on in this dubious industry. My question, is what is that good for? So is the thing with speaker cables. They will tell you a lot to keep a friday night conversation on the subject, to keep you happy, but not much of the most important and required properties.
Sorry, I have no picture of that taken. I'll try to explain. The ideais to use a short 8 AWG (the thickest wire that can fit into the banana plug) that is going between the banana plug and the 0 AWG cable. As I said in one of my posts, an 0 AWG can not be soldered. It takes to long till the tin melts. By the time it does, the plastick sleve is damaged and a significant part of the cable's adge is subjected to oxidization. I use a cable shoe to fit (DIN 70 size) and crimp it with a 0 AWG crimping tool. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DROF-Mechanical-crimping-tool-for-10-to-2-0-AWG-6-to-50-mm-Made-of-Steel/16...
The 0 AWG is kind of difficult to work with. every step that would be eassy with an ordinary wire (up to 12 AWG) is getting bulky.
I do not use spades. They are not good for contact (it gets lose in time) and every here and there it need's to be fasten. An endless maintenance.
If you are into make one for yoursrlf, I may offer you that service.
b4icu, would you like to show us the naked termination going from the 0 AWG cable to the spade or banana connector? I would like to see how you did that. Thanks!
Just seen this add. on this site: http://www.jpslabs.com/speakercable.shtml For jps cables. Not a word on any technical data: resistance, for what equipment they are good for...They do talk about a lot of power (Watts) or current (Amp’s) and a shield for speaker cables: What is that good for, at a time the Amp. output resistance is less than 0.016 ohms (FD=500). This is more like a short circuit. Any one who knows a little in electronics, can tell you it won’t pick any noise. And the output signal is relativly large. They look awsem. I can give them that. Put them a silk tie or a dress and they are ready for a graduation party. Is it important to look that good or is it important to fit the system or produce a btter sound? Somthing must justify the price...So lets do them look good.
Mr. Dill This banana plug is as good as it gets. A friend who was a QA at a large hi-tech firm checked the subject and ended up with those over all others. The tip is making a way better contact (felxibility and surface ares), than other methodes. It also last longer and can connect directly to an 8 AWG wire. Thicker than most others would. They can get wires only as thick as 12 AWG.
Regarding the cable, it might be some better or more expensive stuff out there. However, the calculations and the results, show no complains. Why pay more? much more? What is the market price for a 2.5m (8') long, 0 AWG speaker's cables set? The last I've hurd of, made by a respected brand (!) was $32,000.- for a 4 AWG. They have on the TOTL a 0 AWG too. I assume it is even more expensive. I can get it done and shipped for way less, including an accurate calculation for the best required cable for the system.
Expensive is not a better quality. On a market, that two items will deliver the same, the cheaper will prevail.
Regardles of experience, NONE came out with the answer: How to calculate a speaker's cable, or even a clue of what cable is needed. I understand it is hard to admit such a thing, at a time claiming of so much experience. The other ideas were much of let's give it a try and hear if we like it. Not a sucssesive way to get it right on the first trial. If having experience like that count's I'm out. But I think, it doesn't! What is a very experienced member? 10 years, 20 years, 30 years...of
experience? I've 45 years. I'm in this hobby since i was 15. I orgenized 6 audio seminars, demos, lectures, on the 3rd, Mr. Yair Tamam, founder of Magico speakers gave a speach on speakers...and the list goes on and on. Experience alone, wont help. Some education in electronics, working with the top Hi-Tech firms, using the ears and mostly what's between them - is more important. The problem (understanding the way how to calculate the speaker's cable by the equipment it connects) is solved. Now it is only for you and other members to accept. Thanks.
"Mr. Dill, this is not the one you address (Amazone). It is a good 0 AWG cooper wire."
- Do the research, I did, your wire is: Audiopipe HWY 836 USA Standard O Gauge Primary Wire PW-0. Audiopipe offers several different gauges of this wire and they are all copper clad aluminum.
"I’ll tell you a secret: All cables are having a nylon sleve over, for a reason: So no one can see what is beneath it. No one will cut a cable that cost’s a leg and an arm to check it. The cable they use, is no better."
-Not true at all, many of us have done just that. I have re-terminated many cables, speaker, interconnect & power cables. BTW: There are many better banana plugs available, however it seems you are stuck at a price point so you won't consider anything more expensive. Stop acting like you know everything, there are many very experienced members here.
Mr. douglas_schroeder I oppened this disscusion on speaker cables. Please let's keep it clean from other cables. Thanks.
What I think about the subject? The power cord has no significance at all in Audio. It is the last 3’ you tackel, while many are barried in your walls all the way to an AC distribution box and beyond. No one had shown any scintific avidance, of any advantage of one power cord over the other. Tell me pleas, if you use a TOTL US $1,000.- power cord connected to your cattle to boil some water, would it make a better tea? I don't think so. You better use some AC filters, if you live at a place that your mains are noisy. That also may do some ON/OFF turn sequence, to guard your speakers from clicks if any.
Mr. Dill, this is not the one you address (Amazone). It is a good 0 AWG cooper wire. I’ll tell you a secret: All cables are having a nylon sleve over, for a reason: So no one can see what is beneath it. No one will cut a cable that cost’s a leg and an arm to check it. The cable they use, is no better. Some are way wors.
Nakamichi banana: The Nakamichi banana plugs are the best of all I tryed. The part that goes into the binding post, has the best contact area. The same is used in labs. It also can hold wires up to 8 AWG. No other do. CHORD COMPANY SPEAKER CABLE 4MM BANANA PLUGS (SET OF 2) use the same: http://www.analogueseduction.net/banana-plugs/chord-company-speaker-cable-4mm-banana-plugs-set-of-2.... The Nakamichi are better,
The actual cable, is more than the sum of it’s parts. The genuin testemony of my friend (no commercials) is peaking for itself. Even I was surprised for the good. It simply works and do a big change.
PS. No thanks for solving the attached pictures issue on this site/forum?
b4icu, I concur about the importance of AWG. You are ripping yourself off in terms of performance by neglecting the power cabling. You have a lot of performance improvements available to you if you seek out aftermarket (or make your own, if you wish) power cords. You are not at the summit. Work with power cords and the system will improve greatly. I do not need to hear your system to know it.
I know you are quite well versed on the theory. Now, ignore it and follow my advice. You will not be disappointed. :)
I am not trying to argue with you, but encourage you to go the next step.
Regarding Mr. Dill’s Q: " What about a double run of 0 AWG wire? Should be twice as good ...."
The low cable resistance has an optimum value. After that, getting more gauge, would have little or no benefit (sonic) but will cost way more, as more material and labor are involved.
This optimum value need to be calculated. The result, should be rounded up to the next AWG avaliable on the guage table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm Ref. to this table, a 4 AWG cable has a 0.81508 Ohm per 1,000m or 0.00081508 Ohm per 1m to have this as twice as good: 0.406392 Ohm, requires a 1 AWG cable. In other words, if you would need a 1m of 4 AWG, by doubling the length to 2m, it would now require a 1 AWG cable. or two 4 AWG in parallel. Two equal resistors in parallel = R/2 (of half the value of one resistor). If in series, it is 2R (by ohm’s law).
Pictures: A 4 AWG connected to a B&W802D: https://imgur.com/a/42eh3h1 The other end is connected to a 250W PASS LAB power Amp.made for a friend in Israel: https://imgur.com/a/LF0vyGZ A set of 0 AWG cables before shipping to my friend in Canada: https://imgur.com/a/gkuHdcD An other view of 1 set: 0 AWG 2.5m long, to connect between a 250W EMPTICA power Amp. and a pair of Vienna acoustics Beethoven speakers: https://imgur.com/a/qwcIbTn For both cables, the outcome was noticable. This is the comment of the 0 AWG cables replacing a 12’ 14 AWG set:
"My initial impressions: It’s like having new speakers. The sound is pure and clean. Minute details are suddenly apparent. The range is amazing. Highs, mid-tones and a new bass that I didn’t know my speakers were capable of.
It feels that for all these years my speakers were being choked, and now can suddenly breathe and have their full voice.
To say I’m happy about my new Lang speaker cables is an understatement. I’m thrilled. Thank you for building these superbly engineered cables to unleash the full potential of my home sound system".
1. The actual cooper gauge. 2. The cable length (feet or meter). 3. It’s actual resistance (for a single and for a pair (Red+Balck) in Ohms.
I already made cables of 4 AWG (3m) and 0 AWG (2.5m). Also has the technical solution to make 2x0 AWG and 4x0 AWG cables. So far, all cables were made for free, only cost of material.
Can this site (forum) hold pictures? I can attach some.
For all who think it is a joke, you better check it out. First thing, you can get your speakers closer to the amplifier (as a start) and use some jump start cables between the amp. and speaker. Be carfull not to do any short circuit on amp’s outputs! You may be surprised (for the good) from the sonic change! after that you may come back and share that with us. At the end, ask your self what is the right gauge you need and how to get one. You realize that the jump start cables can not to stay for long.
It is better to understand the relations between amplifiers, speaker cables and speakers, do a knowladgble calculation, and by that make a custom cable to fit - rather than gues and try, with no particular direction or insight.
All
qualities they say they give the cables: Cooper purity, use of silver,
cryogenic treatment, Bi Wire, Burn In etc’ - has nothing to do with the
spec. of a speaker cable. It’s all snake oil mambo jumbo, to cover their
and customers ignorance.
I'll ask you a second time: If you don't care for the data being provided by cable manufacturers, what data is it that you seek?
0 guage (AWG) wires are difficult to work with. They are thick. Too thick to solder, as by the time the tin melts, the isolator also gets burned. It is no longer as good for isloating, it exposes the cooper to oxidize and look bad. The cable itself can not fit into any banana plug on the market. An agent must be connected between the two. A 0 AWG cable is more costly than a 14 AWG, more heavy and less flexible. However, all can be overcome with some technology. Even up to 4 times 0 AWG! Most cables on the market (regardless of price factor) are not getting thicker than 14 AWG. For this reason. Some would look thick, but hey are looking so because a thick isolating tube over a regular 12-14 AWG cooper core. Some make thick cable, but charge a lot for them. This might not be a problem, for others who spend that much on a power cable, that really makes no sense at all. The market, as for what it is, is tricky. None tels you what their cable is good for (DF, Rc, or other), a lot of urban legends are sticked to them (cryogenic, cooper purity, high end banana plugs!) and a nylone sleve that looks nice, to cover the poor materials beneath. Price: What would you think a 0 AWG, 2.5m (8’) long speaker cable set should cost? (if guage goes thicker or cable longer, it would naturally cost more).
Mr.
sleepwalker65 The answer is with the Damping Factor (DF) of your amplifier. There are some exceptions, if he speakers are not coil loaded (ribbon, electrostatic etc'.) or if the Amp. is a class-D type. But most, use a A-B class amp with ordinary speakers. DF is defined as the ratio between the Amp's. output resistance (Ro, in Ohms) vs. an 8 ohms speaker, @ 1kHz. As so, an Amp. with a DF of 500 has a Ro of 8/500=0.016 ohms. The DF is given and you get it as you buy your Amp. It is used to be the higher the DF, the better is the Amp. Some use very stiff feedback to achive it - Not so good. Others, may have tube amps. that have very low DF as low as 8! The DF is actually the way the Amp. is getting control over the speaker's coil. A coil, especially a moving one in a magnetic field, generates an electric current that is equal to the one made it move, but in the opposite direction. It is called the "Lentz" law. Speaker cables are in a way two resistors (Rc) that connect the power Amp. to the speaker. Why two? becuse the cables go to the speaker (red) and goes back (black) to the amplifier. As so, the speaker's impedace has no significance in this electrical circuit. The speaker cables resistance, just need to be significantly lower than the DF. Other wise, the DF would decrease. So if the Rc = DF you actually have a 1/2 of the DF you paid for. This guy with his
Bryston 4BSST2, with a DF of 500 is now enjoying an Amplifier equals to a poor reciever of the 70's with a DF of about 40! In other words, he is maybe listening to less than 10% of his equipment's full potential. The long (24') that would count as 2xRc, is actually equals to the resistance of a 48' long cable. A few more feet and you need transportation to go visit them! :-) Why so long? A thick cable (4 AWG and thicker) is hard to make and would cost a lot. Rather than go that long with cables, it is better to get the amplifier closer, maybe use two monoblocks and guid a blanced interconnect (XLR) that can run up to 100m with no sound degradation, while cost's little.
Mr. cakyol All cooper for electrical use is 99.5% pure. Try to get one with less! Most cables are using wires as thick as 12-14 AWG because that’s the thicker they can fit into their banana plug (Not a very sintific one). All qualities they say they give the cables: Cooper purity, use of silver, cryogenic treatment, Bi Wire, Burn In etc’ - has nothing to do with the spec. of a speaker cable. It’s all snake oil mambo jumbo, to cover their and customers ignorance.
Mr. sleepwalker65 your math is wrong. The cable is fighting the power (P) or the current (I). I used Klipsh speakers (8 ohms) with 99dB/w/m SPL with a Caver 250W amp. that played at 0.001W-1W as loud as it should and still a thicker cable improved sound! The coin been lost under the Damping Factor (DF) parameter. The higher that is, the thicker the cable you need. It is about controling the speaker, not doing a welding, towing a truck or any other idea you were throwing as you thought it is funny.
For the guy with the
Opera Consonance Cyber 800, even thou you have monoblks, because it is tube (very bad DF) and no data on DF! you may use any cable over 24 AWG thick (home phone line).
For the gut with the Bryston 4BSST2 and 24’ long cables: You are not doing well. The Bryston 4BSST2 http://www.bryston.com/PDF/Manuals/300006[3B4B].pdf have a DF of 500. You need a 3x0 AWG! it may be expensive... You better get closer, as 8’ and use a single 0 AWG. An other option, is to used two monoblocks and a shoer (3’) of a 4 AWG cable.
Simple math. Take into account the power demands of the speakers to achieve the desired SPL. Then the power output of your amplifier, and subtract the two. This gives you the margin that can be lost to resistance in the speaker cable, P=I^2*R. You know the power needed to drive your speakers, and you know the speaker average impedance, which gives you the amount of current by plugging in the power and approximating resistance with average impedance. Take the power margin from above, and thus current value and use the same equation to solve for resistance of the cable. Divide this resistance by the distance in feet to obtain maximum ohms per foot of cable, and go shopping!
Simple rule, the thicker the better, the purer the copper the better. 12/10 gauge & thicker will easily handle up to 1000 watts rms amps with no problems.
Any MULTI strand 99.5% pure copper (NOT clad) wire will work. The thicker the better. 12 gauge and thicker will easily handle up to 1000 watts/channel rms with no problems.
I have correct speaker cables, for me, when I hear more than I've heard before and didn't spend an arm and a leg to do so. Plus, the overall balance and stage are "just right."
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