Prima Luna Integrated - EL34, KT88, KT150, Brimar AU - My experience
I was just reading this last night..... http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/analog-reviews/amplifier-reviews/primaluna-dialogue-premium-h... Christian Punter is an excellent reviewer and really goes in-depth on the Dialogue Premium and HP models. |
Yea, the amp and brand get great reviews. I found I have to be very careful of reviews.... I got burned a few times. For example, I purchased the Benchmark DAC1 solely based on reviews... boy what a lifeless unit. My older Accuphase is still way better (still be cause even at 18 years old it still sounds wonderful and I can’t bear to sell it.. so I use it as a transport now). The Benchmark product, if you listen closely.... hmmm.... there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Really odd as it just sounds dead and flat to me. Why it got the rave reviews is just ... well I don’t get it. A long time ago, I "upgraded" my Sonic Fonrtiers tubed DAC with a factory upgrade. Robert Harley said it was worth it. Boy was I pissed.... that upgrade really ruined the sound for me. So.... buyer, or reader, beware. Oh, BTW, I use the 4ohm taps on the PrimaLuna... seems pretty consistent across reviewers. PeaceBruce in Philly |
I got my first exposure to tubes in a retailer on the west side of Cleveland around 1984. I walked into a showroom and was smitten by this beautiful sound... of course I assumed it was the speakers.... I described what I was hearing and the sales guy smiles and said that wasn’t the speakers, it was the electronics. It was a Luxman integrated with a glass window showing two small tubes. Boy did that stick in my head. Then a few years later I was looking for a preamp.... back then there were many retailers and I was living in NYC so i had a huge selection of retailers, brands, and models to choose from. It didn;t take long to convice me that a tube preamp was the only way to go... then it became Audio Research vs Conrad Johnson.... I chose a CJ PV11 over AR... I remember this really clearly. .... The AR was way more detailed but John Coltrane sounded so much better on the CJ. That was it.... I stuck with transistor amps but moved to a pair of VTL monoblocks ... they had the power and control of transistors. I had a retailer that let me take home some amps... tried Cary... (that thing sounded beutiful but the bass was so farty, I can;t believe anyone would think it was a good amp). Anyway, tubes are it for me and I will never change. PeaceBruce in Philly |
Oh, a few more items... just cause I can..... I was so sold on tubes, I purchased the tubed Sonic Frontiers DAC and tubes really smoothed out the digititus of the day. Today, I own a PS Audio DirectStream DAC Junior that I am totally amazed with (no tubes but not digititus). There are risks associated with tube amps.... this is my experience.... speakers that have difficult loads don’t mate well to tube amps. The PL gets good marks by reviewers for their ability to push difficult loads, but I am cautious about this due to my personal experiences. I purchased a pair of Martin Logan Quest Zs.... awful with my big VTL monoblocks..... sounded "glassy" (odd, I thought problems would manifest in the bass, but not so) .. the MLs were known to have a difficult load ... I was traveling back then and would stop into ML dealers wherever I was .... always sounded great... always were displayed with transistor amps. The moment I hooked up my MLs, I knew something was just plain wrong. I kept the MLs for maybe 60 days.... shortest time for a component in my life.... I moved back to Magnepan with the MG 20 and they were good with the VTLs. However, these big Magnepans sounded way better in the bass when a friend brought over a CJ transistor amp... so.... tubes can have trouble in the bass. So.... my rules of thumb for tube power amps: 1) don;t use them with speakers with difficult loads, 2) don;t use them with low efficiency speakers, 3), get a tube amp with higher power over a lower power unit. There are always exceptions... for example if you don;t listen to rock, you don’t need a higher-power tube amp. If you do, get one with some juice. Oh, biasing... the PL amps autobias... a godsend... I had to bias, with a multimeter 16 tubes on those VTLs and I grew to hate it. Just hate it. You have to bend over, get your plastic screwdriver into a slot (never would go) and dick with it. I would burn my fingers and you can;t put the amps into a rack, I had to get my head in there. While any amp you buy will most likely be a bit different, don’t assume it is not a big deal... it becomes a pain. I could go on.... but if you follow my rules of thumb, you will be very happy with tube equipment. PeaceBruce in Philly |
I think the hard edge is in part due to ultralinear mode. Try triode and it will take the edge off. I have that amp and initially ran it ultralinear because I thought my Revels needed power. Tried the Brimar and thought they were a little bright also. Then swapped in the Mullard CV4003 and not bright at all. When I added the extra power of the KT150 I found I prefer triode mode. (I think KT150 in triode is 54 watts/channel.) So I put the Brimar back in for the gain tubes (the 2 in the middle) and the Mullard in the other 4 positions. Now it has more detail but is still super smooth. I have tried all Brimar and all Mullard but I like the hybrid combo the best. |
Leotis, I will try triode mode. Oddly, I never thought about it... I experimented with it on the EL34s and my JJ KT88s..... I didn't care for it... I think it is because the sound was a bit enemic.... I like a more dynamic sound. Now with more power of the KT150s, yea, I will give it a try.... will start out a listening session in normal ultralinear mode to build a memory, and give it a try. Are all Mullard CV4003 tubes the same? As another selling point for PrimaLuna, notice in this and other threads the fun you can have rolling tubes. I never heard of an amp that could take such a variety of power tube types. Pretty cool and fun. You can really tune the sound to match your taste or better match your speakers. PeaceBruce in Philly |
Thank you for posting. I too have the Primaluna HP Integrated. Bought it about 4 years from Kevin at Upscale. LOVE IT! Have also been down the power tube path and tried them all. I am at the same stage as you. KT150's. Second would be the stock EL34's. Love the 34 midrange! Running two 1962 French Ciftes in the most inner pre position. Have had the Ciftes for several years as well. I will never stop using a tube amp. Pure heaven to this brother. |
Bruce, I totally agree with you concerning PL and the fun rolling tubes. I own the Dialogue Premium Int and it’s built like a tank and sounds great. I tried a variety of tubes with this amp which I purchased from Upscale. I ordered it with KT120s but they were too harsh.The stock EL34s were better but a bit bright for my tastes.I also tried the GL KT88 which had a slightly better bass but again a bit bright. I decided on the GL KT77 which have a beautiful midrange and soundstage, good bass and not bright. Since I own stand mounted 2 way speakers, I added a JL Audio E110 sub to supplement the bass using the PL line output. I called Upscale concerning different pre-amp tubes and they recommended NOS Cifte 12AU7 tubes based on my tastes. At first I replaced the 2 front tubes but I found it sounded even better when I replaced all 6 tubes. I also tried the Brimar and the Mullard CV4003 but they were also bright for my tastes. Enjoy |
OK, you convinced me to try the Cifte.Just the 2 middle tubes for now. (= $290 out the door. Ouch!) Got the extra 4 Brimar a couple weeks ago for the outer tube positions, but liked it better with the Mullard I already had. Am thinking all Cifte might be too much top end in my setup. Maybe depends if going vinyl vs digital source. |
Anyone tried the Sophia Electric EL34 on their Primaluna? They are even more expensive than the KT150! Review at https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/sexy-blue-tubes-the-sophia-electric-el34-st-and-aqua-2... |
@a25105 I was able to audition the Sophia tubes which were a bit more dynamic at both ends but I still preferred the midrange sound of the GL KT77. I preferred their sound to the KT88 but that's my opinion. Give them a call and ask if you can return the tubes for a small fee if not satisfied. @leotis I can't believe the price of the Cifte went up that much. I paid between $85 and $95 ea a couple of years back. I guess it has to do with supply and demand. Im so glad I purchased a second set of 6 before the rate increase. |
OK, I listened half the day in triode mode with KT150s and stock small tubes...... I am confused... I don;t know which I like better. I was listening to Keely Smith... she never sounded so good as in triode mode. Madeline Peyroux... triode for her! But with punchy music, ultralinear was more of a toe tapper. With a couple tunes a guitar will pop out in space - imaging was enhanced in triode... but not always. Odd. Maybe it depends on the instrument's harmonic content. Triode took some some of the edge out of words that start with "Ch...." and gave a nicer bloom to the midrange (actually upper midrange). I guess I will choose based on the music. Rockin' = ultralinear ... female vocals and warm music.... triode. To anyone reading this thread who hasn't experienced tubes... for the most part, the sound differences are subtle. Further, the Prima Luna sounds wonderful out of the box. Because some likes this or that tube in the unit does not make the stock unit bad. PL makes a real nice product. PeaceBruce in Philly |
Bruce, I use only ultralinear since using the KT77s. The Triode mode removes some of the bottom and top end which sounds flat with my system. I guess Triode works better with your KT150s since they supposedly have a greater extention and dynamics than the KT77s. I prefer the KT77s since I listen to a lot of jazz and female singers. They also take the edge off my old rock recordings from the 60s and 70s. If you wish I will send you 2 Cifte tubes to try in the front sockets which might help. I’ve swapped tubes with other members before, so you don’t need to spend the extra bucks experimenting. I live in Staten Island which is a little over 1-1/2 hours away from Philly if you wish to hear them in my house. I’m retired so I’m home on most days. |
Thanx Ron, Let me think about that.... I am just settling in with the KT150s.... Kind to offer. I may ping you in a few months to take you up on this. One nice thing about this hobby.... I doubt any trashy folks are into it. We are all a bit crazy here, but how can you be bad when you love music? PeaceBruce in Philly |
Yeah @johnread57, maybe so, but this discussion is about Prima Luna. I too have the DP HP. I've had it a little over a month and absolutely love it. I replaced a recently purchased Rogue Audio Stereo 100. That dog won't hunt with my speakers. And their claim of 100 WPC is totally bogus. It actually hurt my ears at anything over 74 dB SPL in UL mode, Triode mode wasn't much better. I bought it from one of those one man dealerships that we are being warned about regularly on this forum. Wolfsong Audio. Stay away. He will hood wink you. But this is about Prima Luna. I've purchased a set of KT150s from Kevin, but I want to listen to the EL34s for a while. I can't decide if I like Triode or Ultra-linear better yet. I'll try rolling the other tubes as @leotis suggests, as I am always tweaking something. I've been in tubes for 60 years. My dad and I assembled Heathkits into a jammin' stereo back in the 50s. I just replaced a Conrad Johnson PV6 that I had for 35 years with a DP pre-amp. Another big difference. The pre-amp came before the HP, so it drove the Rouge dog for a while to no good end. I am primarily analogue. So I have a high end turntable (VPI) with a newly acquired Sound-Smith Helios cartridge. A BAT VK-P6SE is the phono stage feeding the PL amps. I do some digital with a Lynx Hilo ADAC. I'm looking forward to the tube rolling and what that might bring. The two Prima Luna's mate with each other very nicely. Kevin was such a great help in the purchasing of these units (he sold me the BAT also), his advice is very valuable. He is an excellent resource for all things tubes. He will try to sell you his stuff, but his advice is free. He won't over sell you though, he'll tell you if you don't need it and guide you to a better decision. |
I plugged in the Cifte today. First impression is more refined top end. sounds a little cleaner than the Brimar. So far I like it a lot. Been toying with the idea of using a solid state preamp via home theater bypass. Tried a vintage Threshold SL10. Gave the presentation more definition. But that preamp is a little thin in the midrange. Am considering what other preamp to try. I understand it bypasses the initial gain stage so all those different 12au7s I have for the middle position would then be of no use :/ |
Ron sent me a pair of Cifte 12AU7s to try. Thanx Ron! Compared to the Brimars, they were better. They took the edge off. Overall I liked them. I liked them quite a bit actually. But still, there is a super-high frequency issue in my system.... Something changed... the KT150s sound has changed.... they are about 5-6 weeks old and they are becoming more transparent.... good. They are also growing an extended top end. Not brighter, but I can hear some higher frequencies more than I did. I have Focal speakers with the Beryllium dome tweeters.... they go high that is for sure. With jazz, and well recorded music, the sound is wonderful. No issues at all. When I put on a crappy recording... yikes!!! The song Ballroom Dancing on Paul McCartney's Tug of War had dogs howling in the neighborhood. Now this is a poorly mastered CD... but it is part of the catalog of music I listen to. So....... The Brimars are way to bright for me, the Ciftes are really nice. The stock Chinese are really fine but the Ciftes just sounded better. So, what to do? I just ordered some NOS Mullards from Kevin Deal at Upscale.... known for their glorious midrange and soft top, I am hoping for the best. I guess what really counts is system matching. If I were powering my old Magnepans, I suspect the sound would have been just great with the Brimars. PeaceBruce in Philly |
Update again..... YOU GOTTA GIVE IT TIME!!! I noted the sound changed.. the KT150s (or the system) had some super high frequency thing going..... now it is gone. I’ve been listining with the amps on for about 12 hours per day over the last three days... and it smoothed out. Sheesh! So what is going on? The newest thing in my system is the KT150s.. I suspect they are still breaking in.... but... maybe there is hash on my electrical line? I have one of those PS Audio noise harvesters on my line and the other day it was almost black... I thought it broke... then it lit up and flashes madly. I think the KT150s and still braking in. My NOS Mullards have not arrived yet.... I should have waited I think.. the original Prima Luna 12AU7s are sounding really really good right now. Maybe coulda saved some money. So... How long does it take for a power tube like a KT150 to stabilize? PeaceBruce in Philly |
Bruce, I think you need to let the KT150s settle in for at least 100 hours. I noticed that they change the most in the first 50, but will still settle in more for upwards of 200 hours. I did that same thing you are... swapping things around. I had EL34, KT120 and KT150s, as well as a variety of tubes in front. Right now I have the KT150s and Ciftes. The best thing I did was leave it all alone for a while, enjoy the sound, and let it settle in. Now, it sounds fantastic, and I find that rolling the stock AU7s in, versus the Cifties, I like them both. I have others like the 4003 as well, but I think the Cifties are pretty good overall. Enjoy the music for a while, then roll tubes in 3 or 6 months. |
Mullards NOS. OK, so I am now done... seriously, I think I am done..... I left the PL 12AU7s in ..... so the amp is stock except for the KT150 power tubes.... the KT150s appear to be stable... amp is stable... sounds wonderful. Now I have the Mullards sitting here staring at me. OK, in they go...... guess what... they sound really similar to the Chinese 12AU7s stock in the PL! Honestly, the amp sounds great with either. I am leaving the Mullards in..... there is just nothing wrong with this system now. Nothing. If the Mullards crap out, I will just put the original Prima Luna 12AU7s back in and be done with it. Interesting journey..... This Prima Luna integrated is one of my better buys. If you consider it, I can't imagine you not being happy with one. PeaceBruce in Philly |
