Rich; organic true balanced amp w good detail $6k

I've owned Lamm M1.1's and M2.1 and my friends fell in love with them but then I heard the VTL S400 releasized I needed some more clarity and also surpising the VTL went lower and deeper and it was definitely tighter.. I can't imagine the Belles comparing to the Lamm's as they are really addictive and some day I'm dying to get a set of Lamm ML2.1... If you run the Lamms in a home theater setup you better drop the center channel because there is no way you will find a matching tonal center channel amp... run Phantom Mode..

Sutts: The Lamm M1.1 versus M1.2 ..yes the M1.2's are better (not in a huge difference as he just used more currently available parts) and they provide like another 10 watts a channel. The biggest advantage are they are newer (since these run in Class A full time) Expect to see them listed for about $6000-7500 for Lamm M1.1's and somewhere north of 10k for M1.2's. Oh yeah and buy the 6922 input tubes from Lamm as they were like $25 each from them.... total no brainer bargain..

As far as the VTL amps.. 6550 tubes from VTL are about $60 each but you can get between 5,000-10,000 hours I out of tube the way VTL runs them... plus the best part is no matched pairs,quads, octets.... so way cheaper than ARC retubing... one tube blows, just drop in another. The new VTL450 signature has the computer controlled biasing which is awesome... similar tech to the S400 stereo amp. VTL no problem for home theater...

As far as Music Reference amps... I have owned the RM200 twice and I still regret selling it.. it's not as organic/seductive as the Lamms but it's more open on the top and crystal clear with even 2ohm control.. it only requires a Quad of 6550, or KT88's tubes which I recommend buying from Ram Tubes (Music Reference's company) especially the input tubes because they DC stress them which no one else does .. Music Reference amps aren't hard on tubes and tube that would be noisy in other amps are quiet in the RM amps.. The older RM9 required more expensive Matched Quads to achieve 100watts a channel or 125watt a channel in the RM9 MkII. These don't have the iron fist control of the RM200 (which can borerline on sounding similar to the high end SS Ayre amp in clarity and control) This might be similar to the Vac with the sparkle, and also without the constant repairs my friends have had with their VAC's (they sold them now and went back to solid state... after 3 roundtrips back to the factory..) Music Reference.. no problem for home theater.. Check out Audiocircle dot com for the Music Reference Forum, I'm sure you can post and find someone near you to hear these amps.. very minimalist but bulletproof design and they sound great!

I have not heard the Lamm amps in direct comparison with the Belles, but I would expect the Lamm amps to sound better...they ought to at more than three times the price. Please note I was referring to the Lamm hybrid design, and not the Lamm SET amps.

The 150A Reference amp and 350A Reference amp run cool. I have owned each, but I have only owned a single 350A Reference whereas I own 150A Reference monos.

I have been told that the Belles amps are meant to be left on, but I turn mine off each night. Energy consumption guilt. A couple hours of warm up gets them up to optimal sound, IMO.

Do they texture like tubes? That's a tough question. No solid state amps that I have heard sound like tube amps, but they do some things better than tube amps I have owned. The strength of the Belles amps is their tonal balance, sweet top end, bass control, and resolution.

The VAC tube amps I have owned were stunningly clear and holographic. However, they were not as tonally balanced and their bass, while excellent, was not as deep and solid. I also would not characterize them as warm because their top end has so much sparkle.

The designer of my Silverline speakers recommended Belles (or Pass Labs) amplification, and he was correct IMO. Have you asked Israel Blum what amps he would recommend for your Coincident speakers?

Cyto- thanks for the thorough comments/comparisons- didn't realize the VTL amps run their tubes that conservatively- a good thing. Question- you indicate the 'new' VTL450 signature has computer-controlled biasing. If one is buying these used, how 'recent' is this change? Also- are the 450 Sigs not 'room heaters'?

Tvad- thanks for Pass reco- was also thinking of their 30 watt XA-30.5. As for Israel, we talk often- he lives 10 minutes from me! There is no point though in even mentioning SS to him- he is a tube guy through and through-preferring SET's mainly...

Tvad: Great descriptions of those amps!
The Music Reference RM200 would have the clarity of the VAC but without the sparkle (very neutral, might not have enough flavoring for you), the RM9 with EL34's would be a little rolled on top and bottom, but the RM9 with 6550's would have better bass and more top extension but not as romantic in the mids (not as clear as the VAC's) (but not as tight as others or including the RM200 which is like SS on the bottom end).

I looked up on VTL's website and it looks like they have listed the newer version of the VTL450's which have some of the computer control circuitry in them for biasing. Maybe at CES this week it will be official or they will update the website. The S400 constantly bias during listening..As for heat... 16 6550c across two tube monoblocks generates a heat anyway you cut it, but in my small 16x12 room my lamms would heat the room 10 degrees in under 5 minutes.. Class A or Big Tube amps.. both are probably pretty close to the same heat output..

Your speakers are pretty effiecent and provide a high ohm difficult load that you should talk with the designer like TVAD suggested and find out what he recommends. The description TVAD makes for the Belles sounds like how some people descripe the Clayton equipment which I haven't heard.

Congrats on being able to make this kind of equipment choice... as this is the range of $$$ that products can be amazing across the whole frequency spectrum.

Some times Lamm ML1.1's show up which are 90watt tube amps (not hybrid) (not SET) and I'm sure they are amazing at approx ~10k and sometime 6-8k for the older ML1's. Don't buy Lamm's unless the owner has the original crates to protect them with otherwise you will have problems shipping them to Lamm should you need service.

Sutts, about the Pass, how much better do you think the XA-.5 series is? I ask because you will not find any used ones here since they are so new. I was thinking that many will now be dumping their XA's in search of XA-.5's. It would seem to me to be a good time to be looking for the XA's. You may be able to get a pair of XA-60's for the same price as a XA-30.5. Just a thought.

BTW, only the Belles MB-01 is biased into Class A, and it doesn't say if it's fully balanced or not. The Lamm's are very good, but I believe they are single-ended as well.
Here is a quote from the Belles website regarding Class A.

The key to accurate audio reproduction is the ability to resolve detail. To that end, David Belles has designed his first class A amplifier in 30 years. Everyone knows that class A biased amplifiers represent the pinnacle of what is possible in amplifier performance. However, designing and building a class A amplifier is no easy task. The first amplifier that Dave Belles designed more than 30 years ago was an class A amplifier known as the Belles A. Since that time, Dave Belles has learned what it takes to produce a truly great class A designed amplifier.

Class A design requires attention to tolerances, heat needs to be dissipated, power supplies need to be sufficient in order to produce an amplifier that does not compromise performance. The amplifier's power rating needed to be carefully selected in order to produce a unit that would drive most speakers at sound pressure levels that are satisfactory to most users.

Class A design is the best, regardless of what anyone would try to tell you.

I believe the VTL MB-450 Series II Signature with controlled bias is quite new. It was just reviewed in the Jan/08 Stereophile. I believe the reviewer (MF) had some issues with the biasing circuitry. Yes, I've been watching those too. Read the section entitled 'A Matter Of Reliability'.

FWIW, I have heard the Clayton amps. I used to own a pair of M-100 monoblocks. Very nice indeed. Possibly the best SS amps I've ever heard, and I've owned a few more expensive ones. The one nit I had about the M-100's was a low level transformer hum that I could not get rid of. I spoke with other Clayton owners who had similar problems.
I heard the new M-200's have new transformers, so hopefully Wilson has solved this dilemma.

Cheers,
John