Smaller speaker - bigger Woofer?

Bass is about moving air. Moving air is about the size of the driver.

I am using a pair of 12" Shiva woofers on each side: in open baffle design and push-pull configuration, located on the side walls near the main panels which are several feet from the wall behind.

Now let's talk about accuracy as opposed to distortion. Accurate bass in the lower frequencies is not heard that much because there isn't that much in the recordings. Due to either inferior producing and/or engineering, or simply because the musicaians do not necessarily provide it. It is not as though that was their goal :-)

Anyway, when it is there, the specific instrument, and its location in the soundstage should be identifiable.

A boom-box for instance provides a lot of bass (low frequency noise) but usually you cannot identify any instrument in the band making that 'noise'. It is magnified reinforced distortion. The 'sound' you get when woofers are located too close to the corner: exciting those pesky room modes all the more.

The 'bass reinforcment' you get by locating speakers close to the wall behind, or especially in the corner, is a euphamism for 'distortion'. That distortion then tends to smear the entire frequency range in the room, leaving the system little chance for any kind of realism in playback.

To each his own, I suppose.

Larry actually for what you want to spend and the equipment you already own, your best options are either the ATC SCM35 or Dynaudio Audience 80 with subwoofer and or bookshelf speakers like Dynaudio 25's or ATC SCM20's with a subwoofers. What you want is a big midbass sound which can be dialed in with the right crossover settings and right speaker combo you can get what you want. It may take 2 subs in your room.

Vandersteen have a horribly thin midrange and your amplifier is choking on the speaker which is killing the bass output and making the speaker sound even thinner. WRONG SPEAKER!!!

I have solved this problem for many people and I know what you need but unfortunately in this forum you'll never believe it to be possible. I'd have to show you for you to believe it. but Dolby prologic II is the gateway for you and proper setup of your surround. Im not sure if your Cary processor has the goods to be good for multi channel music as the attention to the setup parameters is a bit sparse, especially in the subwoofer crossover department. but you can try.

Let me just say they don't make what you are looking for, most the cabinets for a high performance speaker with big drivers will cost more than your budgeted for.

I've always hated the sound of having the subwoofer dialed in over 60hz. Just gives an ugly bloat in the minds and messes up the sound across the spectrum. When I've had speakers with big bass drivers built in, they did a better job of recreating ambience and even the treble was less harsh and better integrated with a certain kind of ambience detail and integration you can't get with a sub.

One problem with the Vandersteens is the guy who brought them over was demoing with Kimber Cable - yikes. Putting in my speaker cable has obviously really improved the sound, but it's still not what I'm looking for.

I'll check out the Dynaudio. Maybe a smaller version with a sub is as close as I'm going to get.

The problem with 'adding' sub(s) is the crossover. If the monitors go down to say 50hz, and sub(s) range is up to 100hz, or whatever, you are doubling up a 50hz range, leaving a seam in the intetration. Plus the mids of the monitors are still getting low frequency info and continue to strain under it.

With an active XO the mids can cut off at the same frequency subs are engaged for improved integration. Best is probably 100-120hz depending though.

Indicating there is something to be said for aquiring a system that is already designed. Then all that is needed is proper setup for you room.

Anyway, check out the study paper on woofer location: http://www.linkwitzlab.com LINKS link/ 'Subwoofers: Optimum number and location' / 'Getting the Bass Right' link

Both my dble 12" subs http://www.linkwitzlab.com / Phoenix / Woofer, are on the side wall next to the main panels http://www.audioartistry.com / Dvorak, severl feet from the wall behind (and those problematic corners) for that very purpose.

You have to get the right sub with the right speaker and crossover. Understanding what it takes means everything.

Most people are not able for one reason or another to align their subwoofers properly so that the units are time coherent. In your case you surround processor does not have a sophisticated enough processor to manage proper integration. So i don't disagree with what you have experienced but it can be done quite seemlessly. I do it all the time with my own system.

If you like you can order some custom speakers, I emailed you on this matter. You may not have received it. It is not a joke and I am already building a pair for someone else. They are exactly what you are looking for except the trade off in size means a subwoofer is needed to give the last octave a boost in Dynamic Range.

They are a three way with 6" mid and 8" woofers 44"H, 10"w, 14"D they have active crossovers which gives us plenty of Latitude to make them sound anyway you want. All I have to do is send you a corrected file and you upload the new file to the crossover and the edit is made via email. This is not a toy one off I'm offerring you.