For those of you who like solid core wire, try 14g Romex. Really! Tie the center ground wire to the black and connect those to your speaker black terminal. Connect the white wire to the speaker red terminal. Romex cable is designed so that the fields of the white and black wire don't interact. It's a cheap experiment.
Solid core Versus Stranded Speaker cables
Ok for starters I have never tried a solid core Speaker cable until recently. I was very skeptical of the solids performance but I'm glad I tried it. As a matter of fact I tried it and found it to be the best cable I have ever used to date. After much searching, getting opinions from fellow audio enthusiasts and trial and error I happened upon a seller here on Audiogon, JW Audio who offered a 30 day in home trial period with full money returned, no questions asked and took a shot in the dark. That shot hit the bullseye dead center. After receiving the Cryo Nova 12 foot long cables, I was somewhat stunned when I seen the cable, it was nothing like I expected but I connected it anyway. Holy S....t did it make an immediate difference and it keeps getting better. My entire system (Krell) opened up like peeling the skin off a banana. Highs, lows, detail, soundstage, depth, clarity and details that I was missing were revealed. ( and I thought what I had was really outstanding )
Which brings me to the point of this thread. Not knowing what makes a solid core or a stranded speaker cable more desirable aside from the obvious flexibility issues I'm curious to know what my fellow audiocrazies use and why they prefer one over the other or if they even tried both. Anyone willing to give up their opinions on the pros and cons of solid versus stranded speaker cable? I will start that I am a convert to at least this particular solid core speaker wire and unless someone can better it with the 30 day free trial period I do believe it is here to stay.
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The key to my experience with solid core conductors are several factors for instance , I use the purest occ-0 Crystal Copper much less grain structure in the metal higher purity, 2. - dielectric thin Teflon is the closest to air which would’ve the best dielectric , multiples of Individually wrapped conductors. in my case 8-21awg Teflon- occ Copper strands which = a awg 12 per legg , twisted together then tinned with a top Cardas ,WBT,Mundorf ,or Johnson’s 5% Silver solder crimp then done . and use High purity Gold over high purity Copper, or Silver, mo brass many cheaper bananas ,and spades use brass which defeats all your hard work it is 4x less conductive then Copper. follow these guide lines and enjoy the musical results. |
don’t be offendedbut sound is a very subjective thingwhy the obsession with objectifying itorhow something sounds depends on the subject, the situationwhy go for one specificif you guys have a preferred type of cable, you surely have a preferred setting for everything elsewhy does that need to be so?i’m not like that, i don’t understand it, for me sound can make an experiance better, like music that fits the mood, because at that moment in time and space, it harmonises with the rest that specific sound to me is the perfect sound then and there i think i can’t force that by looking for the "best" this or that equipment/setting so i don’t bother at all **** happens...or not mail me if you have something to say |
Here's a link to Tempo Electric : Pure Silver Cables. Just scroll down a bit to see the chart. I've seen this chart on other sites as well (but they don't come to mind). All the best, Nonoise |
Is there a relationship of size (of wire used) and the distance to the speaker from the amplifier, the "size" of the speakers, (badly put but) from big floor standers that require a lot to be driven, to satellite type speakers? I have 2 systems in the music/HT room. They are independent of each other except for power (coming from the same mains breaker source) and the ethernet hardwire. The HT has 7.2.4 configuration fed from an Anthem AV60 to 2x525 and 1x325 amps (13 channels). There are obviously different lengths of cable feeding different sizes of speaker. My music system is stereo only and is a different matter. |
I fund some inexpensive (relatively, certainly not cheap) but new 10' Rocket 33s (33s are the ones Uncle Bill recommended) on Ebay...double biwire on the speaker end, nice bananas, and a really great sounding cable. I understand people like the more pricey 44s and 88s but meh...these are great! I'm also having great results from Morrow cables...1s and 1.1s...made with simply less runs of the same stuff they put in more costly cables, and again, a great sound (replaced some AQ ICs), and a very quiet cable. |
I started using Audioquest speaker cables back when they were stranded (!), and those looked sort of like Kimber cables do now (late 80s I think, and I still have those in my basement Cable Museum). That was the first time I'd actually heard speaker cables sound better than whatever I was using before those. I ran into Bill Low last year at an audio shop nearby and asked him about using a set of Type 8s I have as a simple biwire solution, and he suggested some Rockets and explained why...bought the Rockets, he was right. |
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@digiman14. I am so with you. I used 14 gauge solid core mains Romex as speaker wire and it saw off Clear Day solid silver wire among others which sounded muted by comparison. I have since splashed out on $20 per foot pair 14 gauge OCC copper wire in Teflon which brings a snap into focus quality to the music along with more detail, insight and sweetness. |
I saw it mentioned about gauge vs skin effect in signal cables. Our 2 sets of signal wires are solid core silver 10 gauge, all I can say is no skin effect. I also remember reading a few years back that skin effect does not come into play until a certain footage comes into play, I think it was somewhere between 15-20 feet. |
Then AQ is using the term more as a marketing technique for employing cable strands of various gauges in their higher end speaker cables implying that in doing so, the varying gauges will more effectively propagate signals of different frequencies. They are not invoking the true meaning of "spread spectrum" unless they are implying that by using the varied strand gauges technique that their cables can transmit information that would otherwise be hidden in the noise?? |
The Geoff Kait and the real definition of spread spectrum is a special communications technique for hiding information in Noise, requiring a coder on send end and decoder on receive end. It’s what the big boys use. You know, so the info will be uh, secret. Spread spectrum is also a very effective method for any type of communications. You can spread it, you can hop it, you can fast hop it. |
I can't say I ever used completely solid cable, but I would suppose solid cable is actually *single strand* cable. Point is, there isn't just two choices of solid and stranded. Cable which is "stranded" is available in many extremely thin and frail strands to few and relatively thicker stands, which in a sense is a compromise between "solid" and "stranded". |
Wow I'm impressed by all the discussion on this subject and with the objective responses. I must say I'm pleased with the education I'm getting. It looks like there is an equal representation of enthusiasts in both camps. Very recently I aquired a new amp and processor and for change of pace went back to stranded cables. Although pleased with the experience I'm now thinking of going back to solid just to see how it interacts with the new equipment. This is a mixed bag of exitement as I am looking forward to audition the solid but dread the effort required to attain it. Solid is really difficult to work with. Thank you all for keeping this thread alive. Keep your experiences coming as it will help all audio crazies |
Solid core here. Tried it 20 years ago, never went back. For clarification iI should mention that my setup consists of -lots of electronics-->a Tact/lyngdorf 300w power amp --> Fostex FE204 fullrange open baffle speakers. The fostex drivers are 25w max/95db/1w drivers. It folllows that these are immensly revealing speakers. Any,even the faintest noise, like hum, switching noise etc are magnified. The "try shouting at your tube amplifier"-phenomena is real indeed. Anyway, as an old audiophile, i’ve tried them all. The reasonably available anyway. I find that solid core copper cable (2,5mm2) brings a shine, a light in dark areas, a higher resolution, to the sound. Stranded cable sounds grainy, gray, matted etc. I guess part of the reason that Cardas, Litz etc dont market this kind of cable is that that it's too simple. Nothing fancy can be said or done about a simple solid wire. Did I mention that my cable cost about $1 pr metre, (30c pr ft)? Now I did. Not much profit potential in that. I see that there are a lot of pseudo-metallurgists in this thread. I have nothing to contribute in that direction, and i dare to say that neither has most of these other contributors as well. In other forums that i frequently visit, an assertion requires sources. A psysicist would indeed be very interested in the theories about the movement of electrons in and between the crystals of copper mentioned in this thread |
Strands don’t have to be 26awg since 18awg copper has 100% skin depth at 20kHz, as I mentioned in previous post. When they are stranded insulated then you will still have skin effect since they are in magnetic field of each other. That’s why they arrange them on hollow tube or flat tape, so that any particular wire is mostly in magnetic field of neighboring strands only, reducing skin effect. As for purity of the copper - OFC has thousand of crystals per ft while zero crystal copper has one. Impurities reside between crystals. Zero crystal copper has one crystal not because of perfect purity, but because copper is cooled slowly in hot forms preventing crystal formation. |
Took a quick look at the Jenving stuff. They are just using tinned copper (which can actually be cheaper than OFC copper). It's a plated coating on the copper to prevent oxidation. It's true that tin is not as conductive as copper, but it is still conductive. Look at the following: Copper conductivity is 59,77. Many products (such as terminations) using different types of plating to affect the sound. They may be less conductive, but they still work well. For example, Gold plating (at 42,55) gives you more of a laid back sound. While Rhodium (at 22,17) which is much less conductive will actually give you faster more detailed sound. Brass at a very low 14,94 will transfer a lot of current and be very strong/forward. You'll also see Nickel plating used in a lot of industrial connectors. I still think there is some cross-conductivity in the Jenving tin-plated strands. It's my opinion that they are just giving you a marketing statement to get you to buy their cheap tinned copper cable. If you really want true coated strands, look at Cardas Litz wire. Each Cardas strand is actually coated with enamel, which completely prevents any conductivity between the strands. This is good and does exactly the same thing as solid-core. The strands are typically much thinner at 26awg or smaller. |
I have also noticed that the terminations that some of these manufacturers put on speaker cable really degrade the sound. I have found that, on some cable, chopping off the termination andMy experience parallels that statement. I'm in the middle of trying a few different speaker cables for my new Focal 1008be2's. I didn't have the same connectors on one pair and noticed that I had to use the balance control to center the image. I changed the connectors to the same style and make and voila. Rock steady center image with the balance control centered. |
@stringreen - sorry, I am still using double-runs of 12awg stranded OFC copper for speaker wire (basic monster cable or stuff from Monoprice - or any equivalent source). I find this excellent and neutral speaker wire. It is actually much better than some lower end exotics (like some Nordost Blue Heavens and other "under $1k" cables). It’s also much better than silver-plated, in my opinion. In fact, I avoid anything silver. Just one tiny element like putting in a silver-plated fuse clip or a silver based fuse will change the sound -- silver will push the upper mids/highs and make the sound more artificial. The ultra-high frequencies will be smoothed out and everything else is smoother too. Not neutral, in my opinion. I have put all my R&D in power cable and interconnect for the last few years. I have just converted everything I have over to Rhodium plated Furutech (all power cord connectors, fuses, and XLR connectors). My 20awg solid-core braided interconnects used to have gold-plated XLR connectors. Moving these to Rhodium made them the best interconnects I have ever heard. These are absolutely amazing!!! Speaker cable R&D is on my list, but I won’t get to it for a while. However, I will start with the Neotech NES-3002. It will probably be raw copper wire at the amp end and I will probably use Furutech Rhdium spades at the speaker end (they are all bi-wire and some of my speakers do not have a "wire hole" for raw wire). I have also noticed that the terminations that some of these manufacturers put on speaker cable really degrade the sound. I have found that, on some cable, chopping off the termination and stripping to bare wire improved the sound tremendously!!!. Not that I am telling you to chop off the ends of several-hundred dollar cables (resale value), but it may make a difference if you choose to. |
stringreen - I have Treo CTs with two 2wq subs. Bet your 5A’s are sweet. You certainly tried some high-priced spreads from the AQ stable. Glad to hear you found cables you like (ClearDay) I have never heard a system wired with ClearDay. Good to know there are other brands out there that mate synergistically with Vandys. |
audiofreak...boy am I with you.... I got ClearDay double shotgun bi-wire for my Vandersteens, and my word....a jaw dropping clearing of fog. I’m very pleased with it...tried very many cables, but ClearDay (top of the line Wireworld sounds just about identical, but with a bit more ease) is nearly at the top for me. |
Sorry, I have not tried out the NES-3002 yet. It might be a while (maybe next year) before I get time/money to try it. I'm working through some room acoustic experiments right now (diffusion panels, membrane bass traps, etc.). The NES-3002 is a 9AWG cable. You can definitely split half of the wires out for a bi-wire speaker - giving you a 12awg connection to each bi-wire point. Since I haven't worked with the NES-3002, I can't comment on the stiffnes. You should email Chris as VH Audio if you have any questions. He's happy to answer anything you need. |
@auxinput I am curious if you have tried the Neotech NES-3002 as speaker wire? I am contemplating using Neotech for a DIY speaker cable I want to build. I am leaning towards solid core and the Neotech stuff seems to be the consensus choice for solid individually insulated. One big question is how flexible is this stuff. Being solid core, I would anticipate the cables get very stiff eventually (bend solid core copper it gets firm). The other question I have is bi-wiring this stuff? It looks like a good choice for bi-wiring? thanks, |
I have not done any experiments/testing with speaker cable, but I will say that solid core has won every test I have done for both interconnects and power cords. I hand-build all of my power cords and interconnects. Test with both stranded and solid core. Shielded/non shielded. Braided. What I have found with stranded is that the sound becomes a little messier/muddier. What I believe is happening is that the outer strands of a bundle are first to be charged by an incoming signal/waveform. It take a little time for the charge on the outside strands to reach the innermost strand (which are charged by contact). By this point, the outer strands have already discharged, so the innermost strands have somewhat of a delay on the charge/discharge. This creates a sort of delay or echo on the original waveform. This can make the high frequencies brighter or harsher. When handling solid core, the gauge of the wire is critical. There is a fine line on a balance. I have found that 20awg is the best overall to use in any situation (either power cord or interconnect). As you increase the size of the wire awg, the bass waveforms becomes punchier and push harder. At the same time, the high frequencies start to roll off and you get a very lo-fi type of sound. If you go smaller than 20awg (such as 22awg), you start to lose bass/midbass body and the higher frequencies become too overstated. I have experienced this both on power cords and interconnects. Power cords with 18awg or 16 awg will not have enough high frequency detail. I tried a power cord using 22awg solid core and I got extreme amounts of high frequency detail, but there was not enough bass/body. It made the audio sound very thin. In interconnects, 18awg rolls off too much highs. I have tried combining a 20awg with a 22awg for interconnect and it did give more high detail, but it ended up pushing too much high frequencies and it just did not have enough punch/bass. Finally, braiding seems to be the best way to arrange the wires. I have tried twisting and it doesn’t do anything. There’s a somewhat unexplainable characteristics that happens with braiding. It calms down the upper mid/high frequencies so that they are not so bright. It also seems to reveal a bit more midbass body. Shielding (like braided copper shielding) will achieve somewhat the same thing, but it tends to want to roll off the high frequencies instead of just calming them down. On my interconnects (which are all XLR), I use 2 braids of 20awg to give a total 17awg interconnect. For power cords, I use 6 braids of 20awg to get a final 12awg cord. All using Neotech 20awg OCC copper Teflon coated solid-core hookup wire. (Yes, OCC is better than OFC). The Kimber stuff is probably the best equivalent that is on the market. It is stranded, but each varistrand bundle is only 7 strands, so there really is only one inner strand. The braiding also helps. Right now, I’m using 12awg stranded OFC copper (basic monster cable) for speaker wire, but I have been curious about trying the Neotech NES-3002 speaker wire. It uses all OCC solid core wire that is individually insulated. Based on the number of wires in the pictures, it seems to use 21awg solid core. Shown at the bottom of this page: http://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html You can click on the picture to see wire detail. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire note the paragraph: The effect of speaker wire upon the signal it carries has been a much-debated topic in the audiophile and high fidelity worlds. The accuracy of many advertising claims on these points has been disputed by expert engineers who emphasize that simple electrical resistance is by far the most important characteristic of speaker wire. . |
nutty, Probably the best example of that was the near insistence of Wilson Audio dealers to mate Wilsons with Transparent Cables. That assertion was supported by the professional press as well. In my case, as a long-term Vandersteen speaker owner I was motivated to go with Audioquest speaker cables as they were said to have a special synergy with Richard's designs. |
Perhaps another way of looking at the cable issue is not only the stranded vs. solid core subject, but the purity of the conductors being used. As I upgraded power cords, and interconnects in my system, I moved toward purer conductors with as much of an air type dielectric as possible so pure conductor has a greater influence on the sound than the dielectric surrounding it. Most of us have experienced the debate about well...silver is bright and copper is mellow blah, blah, blah. IMHO, silver, copper and gold or hybrids of those sound a certain way mainly due to conductor purity (lack of grain boundaries in the metal) and dielectric quality where the dielectric is predominantly air freeing the cable to direct the signal from component to component and then ultimately to the speakers. If you want to experiment with this and minimize the financial impact of doing so, go to used cables.com. They have an extensive lending library enabling you to listen, in your system to various cables. Your ears get to be the arbiter of truth! |
Having contacted my favorite manufacturer their recommendations still leave the decision to me. Although making suggestions on which cable is in their opinion most "synergetic" with their brand it is also made known that the final word has to come from the listener as every cable has its minor differences and every ear is different. So manufacturers recommends are no different than everybodys who answers these type of threads. |
AQ is my first choice, Always! The reason? They weld wires to DIN/RCA, eliminating wire-solder-metal interfaces. Solid core works to me but on the other hand "golden ratio" from Cardas sounds even sexier, plus Cardas headphone wires are fantastic with my HD-650... For speaker wires I have it easy because Naim Audio insists on using NACA wires for NAP250s and although I did buy a few dozen feet of AQ speaker wires, it is still on my "to do list" to actually try them. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it sooo much easier to just follow the suggestions from your favorite manufacturer than going thru the pains of constant doubt and swapping, not knowing if its the wire or solder joint or skin effect, or non-WBT bananas :-) Depends on the mindset, of course. I still have some fond memories of living in a society where everybody knew what is right and which direction to look (all together in one direction of course). I "laughed my evil laugh" reading an article in my wife's mag (ART Today or such) that it is liberating for The Artist to have some defined boundaries, set by (totalitarian) society, that somehow it "channels" productive genius! Funny how real life crashes such theories. My point here is: I guarantee there is not a single person on this Planet who tried Nordost Valhalla interconnects resoldered for Naim's DIN plugs! I am free to check if they can beat Naim's Hi-Line, but am I going to pay for this non-returnable freedom? Sorry, but No |
I believe cable performance is system dependant as well as personal taste. I have had success with several different combinations. cousinbillyl if your still in copy, and anyone else interested. Did you have a chance to check out the Kimber website? It has a great illustration of the internal view of the 12 vs series cable. 12 negative grey and 12 positive black windings coated with polyethylene. "Within each of those, are (7) different guage copper conductors. They are twisted together-touching- bare copper on bare copper..... N |
There was a time when I switched to solid core speaker cables and was quite pleased. A long-time Vandersteen dealer showed me the cables and told me that although Richard didn't publicly endorse cables these were the ones he often used. Amazingly, the price point was significantly less than others I was considering. Long story short, I tried them out and preferred them despite the fact that they were a third to half the cost of the others I auditioned. A win win! I have subsequently switched to wound cables again but for fairly priced, high performance cables I highly recommend these solid core cables. There is a decent explanation on their website, too: http://www.goertzaudio.com/contents/en-us/d16_MI_Speaker_Cables.html |
