I think you are all talking gibberish. What's the point of this discussion, to see who can use the 'biggest' words that have absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question, which is itself silly. Hell, it's just stereo. And TURNTABLES at that!!!!
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Dear Orpheus, What 'metaphysics' means is an inscrutable phylosophical issue. To reduce the complexity Quine wrote an article about 'On what there is'. Aka the ontological question about what kinds of beings there are. Stated in quantification terminology: 'there is some x such that...' Well we need to put same name in place of the variable x to make sense of such a statement. As I already mentioned the problem is not the 'sense' but the reference. To be truth functional an expression needs both: the sense as well as the reference. The 'soul' obviously lacks the reference. Regards, |
Every segment of society has it's own unique dictionary. You will not find the word "soul" in an electronics dictionary; but you would find it in a "stereo" dictionary, or a jazz and blues encyclopedia. While I am not an expert in classical music "jargon", I have never heard that word used in reference to classical music. Since the subject here is "music", as opposed to "metaphysics", I do believe someone's trolly has jumped the track. |
I need to put this in Fregean way: any sentence with the word 'soul' as a part is not truth-functional. This word may have some sense but it lacks reference. There is no bearer for this 'name' which is the same as a not existing entity. To attribute whatever quality to a non existing entity has nothing to do with science. This word is invented as the opposite of the word physical so to use this word means to assume 'extra physical' reality. There is no music kind without physical instruments , the human voice included. The lack of musical vocabulary can't be compensated by use of metaphors like 'soul'. Regards, |
I stand corrected; Beethoven got soul, and Beethoven definitely "boogies". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MFbn8EbB4k&feature=fvst |
Onhwy61, I've been into jazz for most of my life. Music I like consists of from 3 to 6 instruments, while classical music consists of many instruments. On less than "audiophile" equipment, all of those instruments are mashed in together and it sounds like noise to me; but played on equipment where I can hear the different instruments, it can be beautiful. |
Bach's music always got my attention. It obviously has soul and a very complex one. That doesn't mean that I fully like this soul but I do resonate with it. I think that he is the greatest classical composer. Every piece of other kinds of Western music including heavy metal contains elements of classical music at one level or another, in a more subtle or open way. Thuchan, do you also think that RTR decks differ in this respect? |
Orpheus10, I must agree with Frogman. All great art has soul, and would not last if it didn't. To name one example, the works of J. S. Bach have survived for almost 300 years now, and will certainly last another 300, assuming mankind does. Take a listen to the Bach B Minor Mass (John Eliot Gardiner conducts an excellent performance) and if you cannot find "soul" in this music, well..... I should add for the sake of clarity that I am not equating "soul" with religious work, I just picked that as an example of one of the greatest and most passionate musical works ever written. |
BTW I forgot to mention I am pretty sure that some TTs have soul and some not as I expressed in the "Accurate Speed Thread". I would never go for a neutral sounding table providing no emotional spirit on the soundstage. I know and when listening to some systems I realize that the TT has no soul - which is a dead one - I usually tell people not going for buying the next soulless version in the next year but invest better on real gear. I also know people who are hunting after souls in their laboratories putting labels like distortion on it... |
Dear Geoch, You are pleading for taking responsibility. Yes and No. I agree that we will never succeed in creating a brave new world or a Futurum II. I am pretty happy with the current condition allowing us so much freedom as it has never been in history, also beause of reasonable politics, of the internet, the new media and the opportunity exchanging ideas with people we would never have met (virtually) in our lost small worlds. But do I need to argue with crude opinions showing that someone never started to "open his soul" or if he looks for other aims on this platform as we are looking for - e.g. as a hard seller in the wolf's disguise. Yes I have very clear requirements for "living here on Audiogon" and if you may look at it my pleadings for keeping some basic standards is a kind of fighting. Maybe I got a bit tired. And yes thanks for letting me know. Maybe it is also because I meet more and more people (on platforms too) always transporting the same BS again and again. You know as good as me when repeating this stuff again and again people tend to believe... On the other hand we should not start joining manipulating parties or following church leaders. Most people are looking for being guided. That's a fact. But one should always have the will to decide how far he is going. The other extrem position becoming sarcastic or fighting against the industry again and again doesn't help so much either maybe with the exeption for the one carrying the banner. We do need manufacturers and magazines and we need to accept they have their own targets. Why not - as long as it is clearly expressed and separated from religious tendencies. In this thread we have seen that some of the writers in US magazines followed directions in the 80 and 90 ies which are hard to understand from a today's perspective and it is just great that some of us are able to sound this "here". Nevertheless taking a position is always more difficult than riding the "critical horse". "Each his own" does help stopping sensless fightings on positions which are overcome. You cannot bring everyone under the Pope's wings. And I doubt that e.g. the natives on some islands in the so called paradise in Hawaii are happier today because we sent them clothes, tried stopping them in making music and dancing. Variety is good and soul is not so bad too... thanks fo stimulating and motivating me Geoch. In this Thread a lot of valuable information is being made public. best & fun only |
But let's consider the idea that particular pieces of equipment and speakers can be voiced for and geared toward certain types of music. I could say that my speakers are definitely better with acoustic music and my amp doesn't really care. When it comes to turntables it is tough, I think, to assess that, but I would not dismiss the possibility that it can be done. |
I think the most outrageous statement is: I don't like classical music, but when I heard it on a Sota Cosmo, it changed my opinion.I never imagined any equipment, yet alone a specific turntable, could have such an effect. But then again it does open the possibility that I'll one day like heavy metal (all variants) if I just hear it with the right power outlet cover. |
"I know what I like & I like what I know" (Genesis) Dear Thuchan, What kind of traumatic experiences can make such a brain onslaught in which a man yearning for purposeful ignorance? How can the perplexity brings so much fear? Simple-Cynical-Fanatic Maybe a promising coctail for a potential fascist subordinative? Perhaps its too late for some to catch the train of mental exaltation, but WE have to care about it as long as we share this Earth and we are threatened by the same demons in our living. Have we become so apathetic in our eclectic environment allowing the luxury of turning our back to the growing of our future enemy? I don't think that we are the pioneers of a new brave world. The world was allways manipulated in it's (supposedly freedom of) choise-willingness-action, lefted clueless about what are the consequences of their condescension and we are part of this world also. I don't believe in the "each his own" philosophy. There is not a worthy living without fighting for the indifferent crowd. Maybe some distinction and understanding could mitigate the rejection of the unknown and opens those neglected locked doors. To keep patiently continued without bitterness is unrealistic but as you are one of the strongest in this war of intellect and cultural plurality, being absent for this catching among the losted, does not conform to the elevation of the participants on this platform. Now I have to find this "Bustelo" ... my "Camus Extra" is empty! |
Frogman, Learsfool, now I remember that classical music you are referring to; it "boogied" and it had a whole lot of"soooule". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g7KawdsVSQ&feature=related |
Yes, the world seems to be populated by more and more simple minds. Frogman, we have a hard job convincing all these fools. Is it worth an effort? I do not think so. Maybe we are sometimes too tolerant, also with participants on this platform which are not interested in exchange of opinions or learnings but only to spill out stubborn or agressive short remarks without content. best & fun only |
**** Classical music has no soul **** I share Learsfool's amazement that someone would make such a statement. One may not like one particular genre or another, but to believe something like that is, to me, a sign of a lack of openness at all that music OF ANY GENRE has to offer the listener. Without meaning to get overly metaphysical about this, music, like all art-forms touches parts of a listener's (audience) psyche that are not always in our comfort zones. We then, as typical human beings, do what is sometimes easiest: we shut out it's emotional impact, and decide that (at best) "we don't like it", and (at worst), "it sucks, it has no soul, etc,". None of us are fully enlightened individuals (I will speak for myself), but a first step should be a degree of openness to art that we don't understand, or that causes us some discomfort. The potential rewards are huge. |
****TT's and cartridges are "voiced" for different genre's of music, but perhaps only the most astute audiophiles are aware of this; which makes the fact why you are so "unaware" that much more apparent.**** -Orpheus10 I am curious about how you arrived at this conclusion? Perhaps you are confusing the documented fact that some of the best cartridge designers use or have used live unamplified music as a reference, with the idea that their cartridges are then voiced FOR a particular genre; a mistaken assumption. ****Classical music doesn't boogie****- Orpheus10 Well, I am going to need much more than one cup of coffee, and a lot more free time for that one.... |
Yup, Stretching the budget for this upgrade. Choice of cartridges with such phono is unlimited and my hands are itching to rewire tonearm to 5-pin stereo-balanced. I've also heard that 5-pin stereo-balanced interface transfers sole(from turntable) to components in the chain much more efficient and with less jitter and shorter length errors than RCA unbalanced:) |
Thanks, Marakanetz. The Violektric phono stage looks pretty cool. There is some possible ambiguity in the product description, but it does seem to be truly a balanced circuit. Other true balanced phono stages include Atma-sphere MP1 and MP3, Ayre p5Xe, BAT phono stages, Hagerman Trumpet, K&K, VSE RTP3, and probably more that do not come to mind at the moment. I wonder if Violektric supply a phono cable terminated with the male version of that 5-pin connection. |
Learsfool, when you add classic and soul you get "James Brown". Tell me what classical music "boogies". No one defines "Orpheus10", except "Orpheus10". Now, back to the subject. TT's and cartridges are "voiced" for different genre's of music, but perhaps only the most astute audiophiles are aware of this; which makes the fact why you are so "unaware" that much more apparent. |
"That just might be the most absurd thing I have ever read on these forums." I must disagree with this statement. I love classical music and I do not agree with Orpheus10, but, the most absurd?? No way! Not even close! Does not even make the top 1000. My current favorite is the member that trashed a CD player because he could read a magazine from cover to cover while it was playing. In the world of absurdity, that is Nobel Prize quality. |
Wow, this thread has veered off into so many different directions, many of them useless and not pertinent to the original topic. What is really hard to believe is that people are still posting to it. If we keep it going perhaps it could become the longest thread about nothing in a while (aka Seinfeld - that show had soul). |
just returning from vacation in the so called paradise which turns out to be a paradise as long as you have not been there :-) - looks like the TAS writes and others followed the same approach just ignoring what could be better. Everyone may live in his own prefered world maybe surrounded by boosted LP 12 updates. I went a different way and I do not feel it was completely wrong... best & fun only |
He calls himself Orpheus10 and we have no idea what it means. As for "classical music has no soul", this statement does require elaboration. I myself don't like classical music either, with some very rare exceptions, though I can appreciate the musicianship of classical performers. But then again I don't like "classical jazz" either. |
Lewm, http://www.violectric.de/Pages/en/products/ppav600.php Looking at the rear-view picture of this phonostage you clearly see 5-pin balanced input slot. There are not too many fully balanced phonostages made nowdays, but this one is among them. |
Marakanetz, You wrote, "Balanced isn't only 3-pin. It could also be 5-pin stereo-balanced. If the phonostage is fully balanced(recall Violectrik), you can rewire tonearm for 5-pin stereo-balanced transmission." Actually, you would not have to do anything to the tonearm; just bundle the wires for both channels and connect them to one 5-pin connector. There would be no electrical difference, of course, between using separate 3-pin XLRs, one for each channel, to carry balanced signals, and some sort of 5-pin connector for wires carrying the signals from both channels in one bundle, but I have never seen this done. Have you? Where did you get that idea? And what's a Violectrik? There are many examples of modern true balanced phono stages, but you've stumped me on Violectrik, and I am too lazy to google it. I like the name, though. |
Martin Colloms ,years ago in stereophile explained that he became aware that with some component,the rhythm in music disappear. And he made a demo at the hifi show in London on classical music,i was unfortunately not there but somebody said me he was quite astonished at finding rhythm differences in elizabethan music by listening to hifi components. |
I have been contemplating this very topic,because I have noticed my turntable front-end, both acquiring and losing these very qualities with some aspects of fine-tuning and set-up. My turntable is the Yamaha GT 2000,the cartridge is the Soundsmith 'The Voice(ebony)',the phono stage is the Simaudio Moon LP 5.3. My June 2011 purchase of the Audeze LCD-2(rev2) headphones and Violectric HPA V200 headphone amp,have provided me with a first class expose of my front-end.I have been utilising the combination's qualities of musical naturalness and musical insight to fine tune some aspects of my turntable set-up. One of the repeated effects I have become aware of,is the importance of bearing spindle perpendicularity.In other words; Does your spindle lean in any way or is it 'plumb'? I repeatedly notice that my turntable sounds better when I take the time to ensure that the platter is leveled.I speculate that if the bearing spindle is rubbing against the bearing sleeve,noise is generated which is not detectable to the ear,as noise,but subjectively is noticeable as a loss of 'musical' integrity. Another aspect of my turntable fine-tuning that effects the same musical quality is the isolation of the turntable.I use 14 Clearaudio Magix underneath my turntable.These mag-lev footers are incredibly difficult to optimise.They are no respecters of components whose Center of Gravity is not also the the dimensional center.Thus there is the problem that some of the Magix are more compressed than the others.I speculate that this results in each of the footers isolating at a different frequency,which could not be the ideal effect.Compound this with the observation that the Magix sound different depending upon how much they are loaded down,and you have a irritatingly difficult task of optimising those three aspects(equal loading on each footer,along with finding the optimal load of the totality that they support,whilst maintaining perpendicularity of the spindle). I'm explaining this in a round about way,because my observations are that each of these parameters,has an effect upon the sound quality.The most noticeable to my ears is the quality of syncopation and emotional connection to the music.The other hi-fi aspects of the sound(bass,dynamics,detail) suffer and improve also,as one either moves closer to,or moves away from optimising the three parameters I mentioned above. This was an unexpected finding for me,though I had noticed effects along these lines when attempting to optimise another mag-lev platform(the SAP Relaxa 3+). These are my observations only,and by no means an attempt to put forward a scientific explanation.I offer them here,only because the observations surprised me and they are relevant to the topic under discussion. Take my observations with a grain of salt if you wish.I have no desire to be quoted or regarded as an an audio-maven. |
Q: I know you strive for complete solutions, but have you ever thought about direct drive?I, too, like and respect Simon Yorke but rather disappointed about the above. Another bewildering thing is his answer to the below: Q: XLR vs RCA? Is balanced phono output a better one? _______ |