Speaker advice redux?


Hello all,

I have already benefited a lot from advice on this site helping me to pick out speakers for a new system. I am close to a decision, and having finally thought through the various factors wanted to put my finalists to a vote here on Audiogon.

Here are the factors:

--the amplifier is the Creek Evolution 50a
--the room is small 9x11 (I will be able to pull the speakers out about 2 feet from the wall.)
--this is a row house, so I need a speaker that performs well at low volume. (i.e. neighbors).
--my musical taste is eclectic. I listen to jazz, acoustic, rock, and r and b.
--I would rather not use a subwoofer, although I wouldn't rule it out down the road.

So I am looking for an easy to drive speaker, that is not too fussy about placement (although will not be jammed against the wall), matches well with the Creek 50a, performs well at low volumes, and does a range of music well.

I had nearly settled on the Dynaudio Excite x12 before reading that they really sound best with quite a bit of volume. This has led me to go back and reconsider two of the speakers that Audiogon members seemed to suggest for conditions like mine most often:

The Harbeth PS3er

The Silverline Minuets Supreme Plus

So I wonder if those of you who have an opinion would care to vote as to which you think is the better choice, given the above described conditions? I should say too that the cost differential is not a huge factor to me in that both are within my speaker budget, and while I recognize the Silverlines are a great value, I am going to live with this decision for a long time.

With many thanks again,
Margot
mcanaday
"A speaker is either able to resolve details better than another one or it's not, level isn't going to change that."

That is true in many cases, and would probably be true in all cases if the spectral balance didn't change with volume level. But sometimes that is what happens. Let me give a hypothetical example that illustrates what I'm talking about. I'm going to make some simplifing assumptions here, to keep this hypothetical from getting too complicated:

Suppose we want to design a compact speaker with decent bass, so we choose a beefy little 83 dB efficient 5-inch woofer that has some serious low end going on (honest 40 Hz in about 1/4 cubic feet). Power handling 50 watts RMS, 100 watts "music program", 200 watts peak. And because we want good resolution, we choose a nice little 90 dB efficient 1" dome tweeter, same power handling characteristics as the woofer.

The problem we run into is thermal compression. As a ballpark generalization, a speaker will have about 1 dB of thermal compression at 1/10th its RMS power handling, increasing to about 3 dB at its RMS rated power handling, and going up from there.

The woofer will see far more power than the tweeter, since the tweeter will be padded down to level-match with the woofer. So let's say we "voice" our little speaker to sound correctly balanced at 97 dB, which corresponds to 50 watts input. Our woofer is seeing nearly the full 50 watts, and our padded-down tweeter is seeing a little over 2 watts. So at 97 dB, our woofer is exhibiting about 3 dB of thermal compression (that's why it isn't giving us the full 100 dB we would otherwise expect), and our tweeter isn't exhibiting any thermal compression at all. So instead of being padded down the 7 dB we might expect based on the efficiency difference between the two drivers, we have padded down the tweeter by 10 dB, so that the spectral balance is correct at high sound pressure levels (97 dB ballpark).

So, what happens at low levels, say down at 85 dB or less?

Well, at low levels, neither woofer nor tweeter are seeing enough power to exhibit any significant thermal compression. But remember that we had to pad down the tweeter by an extra 3 dB because we wanted the speaker to sound good at 97 dB. So now, at low levels, the tweeter is 3 dB too soft relative to the woofer! As a result, our killer little speaker sounds dull and lifeless at low levels - you have to hit it with a lot of power before it "wakes up"!

Now this isn't really a change in resolution per se, but it can sound like a change in resolution, because the treble range - which conveys the little details and nuances - is subdued relative to the rest of the spectrum at modest SPLs.

What would happen if we didn't pad down the tweeter by that extra 3 dB? Well it would sound correct at modest levels, but then at high levels it would be too bright, and especially so on peaks. (The correct solution, imo, is to do a better job of matching up the real-world thermal characteristics of woofer and tweeter... but then this hypothetical example would fail to illustrate my point.)

As mentioned early on, I have made some simplifying assumptions here, but the general principle is valid: When you have a large discrepancy in the thermal headroom of the woofer and tweeter, the spectral balance may change significantly as the volume level changes significantly.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer
Post removed 
Sorry I wasn't clear, Bob! Let me try again.

First a bit of background that I left out: Thermal compression is caused by the voice coil heating up which causes its resistance to rise (there are other bad things that happen as well, but this is the main one). As the resistance rises, progressively less wattage goes into moving the voice coil, and progressively more wattage goes into further heating the voice coil, so it's a viscious cycle. Normally thermal compression is negligible until we get up to maybe 1/10th the driver's RMS power handling, then it starts to accelerate rapidly, often reaching 3 dB at full rated power. In the example I gave in my post above, the woofer is subject to significant thermal compression but the tweeter is not.

It might be easier to visualize how this can make the speaker's spectral balance change with level if we start out at low SPL, using the same 83 dB, 50 watt woofer and 90 dB, 50 watt tweeter as before:

Let's say we start out with woofer and tweeter level-matched at 1 watt (83 dB). Since the tweeter is 7 dB more efficient that the woofer, we have padded it down by 7 dB in order to match the levels.

Now if we go up to 50 watts, we would expect both the woofer and tweeter to deliver 100 dB. But the woofer in our example loses 3d B to thermal compression (due to the voice coil getting very hot), so it only gives us 97 dB, while the tweeter is still delivering 100 dB. So the speaker sounds bright at high SPL.

If we wanted to "voice" the speaker to sound correctly balanced at 50 watts, we would want the tweeter to also deliver 97 dB. We do that by padding the tweeter down by an additional 3 dB.

But this additional 3 dB of padding on the tweeter needed to level-match at high SPLs results in the tweeter being -3 dB relative to the woofer at low SPLs, where thermal compression is negligible.

If it's still unclear, let me know and I'll try again.

I first became aware of thermal compression when listening to a well-respected three-way speaker (which cost more than my car) that sounded overly laid-back at at low and medium levels, magnificent at fairly high levels, and forward and harsh at very high levels. In this case, the woofer and tweeter were suffering from thermal compression, but the midrange driver was not (it was the "showpiece" of the system). Since then I've noticed the effects of thermal compression on spectral balance in more speakers than I can remember. It's most noticeable when a speaker gets bright or harsh or too forward-sounding at high SPL, and is most common when a high-efficiency tweeter is paired with a low-efficiency woofer.

Duke
Oh, to the OP. Considering your requirements, perhaps you should also check out the offerings from System Audio. They weren't for me because when I listen to rock, I tend to like it loud. The SA's wouldn't do rock the way I liked it, but for low level listening, they are very nice. I had the 505's but considering that you'll have the vertical space, the 510s would be very nice for what you want. They also have a very small footprint, so narrow stands work nicely.
Duke, very informative post, thank you.

So, is there an advantage to use a speaker with high sensitivity for low level listening?