speakers for classical music

06-09-08: Chadeffect said:

"Box speakers are always going to give you problems though, and IMHO a bad place to start if listening to classical music only."

Lot's of us disagree with your opinion here.

Later you mention B&W 801 and 802s somewhat favorably. Is that not a "box speaker"? Anyway, many of us think that floor-standing, three-way speakers are the logical place to start for high quality, highly dynamic, full range sound for classical music reproduction.

People that can't afford the three-ways should consider two-way, stand-mounted mini-monitors, IMHO, and accept the compromise in low frequency response.

Dave

I'm thinking one of the keys to a good speaker for classical is that they are "fast" and able to keep up with all the details inherent in large scale classical recordings, symphonic or orchestral recordings in particular. Rigidity is another factor.

Planars and electrostats probably have an inherent advantage in regards to speed and rigidity, but I have heard "box" speakers that are fast and detailed as well, though the fact is that many box designs are not, so you may have to be more careful.

The Triangle speakers I have heard come to mind as a good example of a fast box speaker design. The material used in the cone of the bass driver is a key factor as I understand it. Lighter materials are inherently faster and more re-active.

I think the polymer woofers used in many B&W bass drivers and the paper cones used in Triangles are representative of the two ends of the spectrum in regards to the physical properties inherent in bass driver cone materials. Paper drivers can be lightweight and fast, as in Triangles. Polymer is not perhaps as light weight but perhaps more rigid?

Lighter materials are inherently faster and more re-active

Inuitively it would seem that way. However materials need to be rigid as well. In order to make something light and rigid at the same time you end up with something that "rings like a bell" - i.e. your speakers make their own music which is applied over top of the signal that they are fed.

Often a damped design such as a paper cone or fabric dome tweeter can provide just enough rigidity to be fast(especially when properly supported through appropriate voice coil sizing and cone shape). The advantage of pulp paper and doped fabrics is that they are internally damped and dissipate the "ringing" rapidly...this will make them sound even faster than rigid marterials as you get that sharp transient and nothing more.

A less rigid damped paper woofer or woven fabric cone tends to require a larger diameter voice coil to give it better support. In the case of a fabric tweeter the 25 mm voice coil is sufficient as it couples to the edge of the dome but larger diameter voice coils get expensive in order to achieve a decent Xmax.

Rigid lightweight drivers allow the use a small diameter voice coil on a large woofer with the principle advantage of lower cost, high efficiency, greater bandwidth but inevitably some ringing issues to contend with.

Shadorne, your comments seem consistent with what I've observed with several different speaker makes and models over the years, I believe.

When I owned B&W P6s, with the B&W polymer (I believe) drivers, they struck me both physically and audibly as rigid but not fast. They sounded pretty good at higher SPLs, but not clear to the extent of the Maggies I also owned at low volumes. They never impressed me for classical or anything else at low volumes though they sounded pretty good in a larger room at higher SPL.

Of course the amp I was using at the time (Carver m4.0t) may not have had the current or damping factor needed to really handle the B&Ws optimally, so that may have been a factor as well.

On the other hand, my Triangle Titus's were as fast, clean and transparent as the Maggies at lower volumes and held up pretty well at higher SPL as well, but did not have the authority in the bass to match the B&Ws.

The maggies were fast, authoritative and transparent at all SPLs. They were not perhaps the ultimate though in dynamics and low end extension, though a different amp might have help here somewhat as well. Also, I was not able to position them correctly in my current quarters as I had been able in the past, so eventually I decided to change.

Bottom line is that doing classical well is hard. A good design can cut it, box or otherwise. A poor or inferior design will not.

I've spent years playing bass in orchestras and also recording them. I've also spent years looking for the best classical recordings, like a lot of people on this list.

What I have found is if you really have a good recording, very few speakers will hold up to it, not because of bandwidth alone, or inner detail, but also due to dynamic range.

I like to play the system at the volumes that the recording was made at.

My room is about 21' by 17', with carpets, stuffed furniture and LPs lining the walls. Its reasonably dead. One of the best recordings I have run into is the Soria Series (RCA) recording of the Verdi Requiem (Dies Irae side one). The dynamic range, subtlety, detail, bass impact, natural presentation and the like are matched by few recordings, especially anything recent. In a nutshell, most systems simply cannot play this record- it is simply too demanding! It can literally go from a whisper to so loud that many will be diving for the volume control so as not to damage something.

I find that if you need a transistor amplifier to get the sufficient power to drive a speaker to lifelike levels, it will never sound like real music; at best only like a good stereo (Ho hum). So its tubes all the way for me.

That limits the speakers- tube power is expensive and tricky to get right!

The Classic Audio Reproductions T-1 or T-3 is the best I have seen. They are efficient- 97 db, easy to drive (16 ohms), full bandwidth (20Hz-45KHz), easy to set up (6" from the rear wall in my room), image easily, detailed enough to match the best of ESLs and cone systems, hard to fault really.

I can play them to any level I want and not strain the amps. Lots of local artists wind up bringing test recordings over to see if anything that they are working on needs tweaking. They are quite revealing.

This is the only speaker that so far has allowed me to play my most demanding LPs (CDs have never proven as demanding BTW- they just don't have the impact!). Verdi Requiem, not a problem. Black Sabbath 'Paranoid' (original German white label Vertigo pressing) no worries (most systems haven't a hope of playing *that one* at anything near a normal volume BTW). Wagner's 'Das Reingold' on Decca with Solti conducting- easy. 'The Wand of Youth' on EMI-piece of cake. Schwartzkopf singing the Four Last Songs of Strauss on EMI- fabulous! These are awesome recordings, the sort of thing that if they are done right make you shiver- or cry.

Most speakers that have the resolution and bandwidth to really do the job usually lack the ability to also be easy to drive. The CAR is the first (and after 10 year still the only) that I have seen that can do everything right in the same place at the same time.

BTW- they are great with rock, jazz and anything else you can dig up too.